Nepalese American artist Tenzing Rigdol speaks with Mayank Chhaya | SAM Conversation
Nepalese American artist Tenzing Rigdol speaks with Mayank Chhaya | SAM Conversation
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00:00Nepalese-American artist Tenzing Rigdol, whose parents came from Tibet, says with good attention
00:17anything that one does becomes art.
00:20That has been the underlying philosophy of Rigdol's works, including a major installation
00:25titled Biography of a Thought, which was inaugurated at the Metropolitan Museum in New York on
00:32September 19th and will be on display until January 12th, 2025.
00:38It is part of the exhibition titled Mandala's Mapping the Buddhist Art of Tibet.
00:45Rigdol reinterprets the centuries-old Tibetan mandala style of painting by incorporating
00:50modern-day motifs and themes on panels several feet wide and high, with painters taking attention
00:58to initial drawings and then choosing paint.
01:02This particular installation was in the making for five years.
01:07Tenzing Rigdol spoke to Mahim Chahar Reports.
01:10Welcome to Mahim Chahar Reports.
01:11It's a great pleasure to have you.
01:14Thank you, sir.
01:15And it's a great pleasure to be here.
01:19You know, I was watching your interview on The Met as part of the installation video.
01:28And you said something quite striking.
01:30I want to start with that.
01:31You said with good attention, anything that you do becomes art.
01:39That's a lovely statement.
01:41And the kind of art that you do requires so much attention.
01:45Tell me about how you first came to be an artist.
01:53I sometimes get that question in different combinations.
01:59But actually, my surprise is, why isn't anybody painting?
02:06Why aren't people artists?
02:08It's like, for me, it's almost like I don't remember when I was not an artist.
02:15Like from children, we're always drawing, we always know.
02:19And so I always encourage people to paint, even to collectors, curators, everyone.
02:28So one of my friends says, if you ask Rigdol about any problem, he will say there's a solution
02:33and it's just be part of art, like paint, you know.
02:37But when I say paint, I don't mean paint like him or try to become like someone.
02:44So I have friends who come sometimes, have problems, and I say, no, don't worry.
02:47Come up in the balcony I take and just paint.
02:49And they'll say, no, I'm a physicist.
02:51I don't paint.
02:52So they have all this definition of who they are not.
02:56And I said, no, but you can see the leave, yeah?
02:59And they say, yeah.
03:00But when you look at it, you look at it with like your genes.
03:05The science says like your genetics is 20 million of tantra, unbroken chain of the gene.
03:11So you are looking with 20 million of experience.
03:14And of course, when you look at the leave and when I look at it, we are looking at the
03:19same thing.
03:20It's going to look different.
03:21In the differences, we find art, nuances.
03:26And at the same time, nothing to be proud of, but just you're unique, beautiful.
03:32But then slowly, when you pay attention to a flower, you discover your uniqueness.
03:39But when you pay attention to attention, you discover yourself.
03:43So in so many ways, art really is attention.
03:48If you look at art from a method, technique, slowly, I think some other entity is going
03:55to replace that, like AI is going to come with the product.
03:59Then we're going to say, how is my product different than AI product?
04:04At that time, I think then we get into the zone of attention.
04:08See, that's a great distinction you made.
04:11I'm so glad you said that because AI cannot pay attention the way a human being can, right?
04:18AI is not attentive like we understand attention.
04:21And I think that's a great distinction that people need to know.
04:24I'm glad you said that.
04:26Yeah, and also, I think we can relate to your meeting with health, His Holiness.
04:31I'm sure you might have some meetings in the video, some meetings right in front, like
04:37the pranic energy.
04:39There's difference, definitely.
04:41You get it?
04:41Like looking at a picture and in the presence of the person.
04:46And sometimes when you talk about present, being in present, it might mean being here
04:52with all of your attention.
04:54So that's why in India, the words are even better.
04:59Like in Latin, I think ars, A-R-S, means to imitate, copy, or method, or technique.
05:07Whereas in Indian tradition or in the Eastern tradition, we would say like chitrakala.
05:14Chitrakala, yes.
05:16And chitra means awareness.
05:18Chitra means that which shines.
05:20Chitra is that who is always there.
05:22And then that which doesn't move.
05:25And kala means time, there's always motion, there's gati.
05:30And when you weave this time with awareness, they say, that's when the art is.
05:35And then that makes it extremely rich.
05:38And then immediately you say, what does it say in Tibetan language?
05:42In Tibetan language, we call gyuma or gyutsel.
05:46Gyutsel comes from very interesting, again.
05:49They say state of awareness are like in four planes.
05:56The third plane is gyuma.
05:57And from there, all this expression of expression
06:06without so much of I thought.
06:09And they say you are absolutely free to give expression.
06:12And you are not really giving expression,
06:14but you are just like fitting your expression in the grand expression.
06:21So in the East, art has so much.
06:25Absolutely.
06:26So I prescribe more towards those.
06:30I like to look at the richer definition.
06:33Right.
06:34It's almost meditation.
06:37Art as a form of meditation.
06:39It does become meditative.
06:41When I was looking at some of the clips in your video,
06:46especially where you were painting and you're
06:48talking about the brush tip touching the canvas and that contact,
06:54I could see that everything else falls away.
06:59And you're just into that little point.
07:02It's almost like a single point meditation that you were engaged in.
07:06It would be very amazing, I think, when people start painting,
07:12because that's where you're really talking about process.
07:17Because otherwise, sometimes we can talk about the issue
07:21in its aboutness around circumambulating the stupa.
07:25But here, we're talking about the Uber is really driving in your bedroom.
07:31You're talking about then shouldn't we even
07:34talk when you are really let's say when you when I want to listen to someone
07:39in the other room, first thing I do is I put my ear like this.
07:43But if I can't hear it, one thing I do is I close our other sense.
07:47I close my eyes.
07:48And so I focus everything in my ear.
07:50Is that really what happens when you're drawing the brushes
07:55that the tip of the brush and you're drawing it at that time?
07:58Naturally, what you see is your breath would stop.
08:02You get it like your breath would stop when the breath stops at that time,
08:06your finger moves wherever you want it.
08:08But it has to be.
08:09The will is very soft will.
08:11It's not like I want to draw it.
08:13Not like that. True, true. Absolutely.
08:16And then the minute you feel a little bit interruption in your mind,
08:19I have to lift the brush if I force it.
08:23It brings up. Yeah. Yes.
08:24So I really think neuroscience and many things can come together.
08:32You know, absolutely.
08:34Search with art and see really what happens,
08:37what happens to a very disturbed mind when they paint.
08:40You know what happens to the chemical?
08:42These are things we can do research.
08:44And according to East art,
08:49in whether singing or anything through art, you can enlighten.
08:53Forget about the small things.
08:55So it can heal. Basically, art can heal you.
08:58That's what the final claim in the East is.
09:01And even in Buddhism, everything, half of Buddhism,
09:04Kareem, generation stage is art.
09:06Actually, you're using the imaginative power to defeat your crazy imagination.
09:13Correct.
09:15Tell me how you came
09:18to do mandalas, because I mean, there are several interpretations.
09:22One of when you do powder mandalas, for instance,
09:25the idea is you do such intricate work for such a long time
09:29and then you basically wipe it, wipe it away
09:31to underline impermanence of life and the universe.
09:37The mandalas that you do are obviously
09:40relatively permanent.
09:42They are they are already on a surface.
09:46How did you come to do mandalas as painting rather than powder?
09:53I mean, mandalas in Tibetan tradition,
09:57there are actually three dimensional mandalas.
10:01We make with the wooden.
10:03We also make with sand.
10:05We also do painting, you know, all these different styles.
10:08And I studied them as well.
10:12But the interesting thing is mandala
10:16really did evolve.
10:17But the core concept is the same in Tibet.
10:20When it reached, it became very elaborate.
10:22And, you know, but also if you look at the stories,
10:26then you get like, oh, mandala is not it.
10:29It might actually give us an idea of maybe it doesn't have to be that complicated.
10:35For example, you know, this great Tibetan lineage of Telopa, Naropa, Marpa,
10:42Milarepa, these great masters.
10:45And one day this Telopa, you know, the great, great
10:48the grandfather of Kaiyude and Telopa said,
10:53I want to give you an empowerment to all the students.
10:56There were a few students and he said, I want to give empowerment.
10:59So right now, can you can somebody make a sand painting, sand mandala?
11:03There's nothing there.
11:05So Naropa got up, his disciple, the main disciple, he got up.
11:09He lifted his dhoti.
11:11He peed and he turned, he circled around and he made a pee mandala.
11:16Oh, really?
11:18And then Telopa said, wonderful.
11:22You get great.
11:23Now it's a good omen, auspicious.
11:25Now I give you the teaching.
11:27So in so many sense, mandala is really about like gathering
11:31everybody's attention.
11:32And then after they create the mandala, it's the teacher
11:35who's really instructing them on deciphering those things.
11:38And really.
11:40So even mandala, man means manas, mind, dala means put mind in there.
11:45Or to really, from a textual point of view,
11:50mandala is something that
11:53includes all the technology of our tool called magical technology,
11:58the complete medical technology.
12:00So there are many things like that, but not nothing.
12:04But I did study.
12:05My first mandala that I studied was compassion mandala from a teacher.
12:10Then I studied Yamanthaka and slowly I just read scripture.
12:14But yeah, I did the painting just because, yeah,
12:19the installation, everything I saw in the center, I wanted to do a sand.
12:23But then later I thought, you know what?
12:25Let's let complicated less than the painting panel there.
12:29True. I'm talking about the installation at the Met.
12:34How did that come to me?
12:35Because I was watching the video of the official Met video
12:39where you talk about the curator asking you to get involved
12:43with that at some point.
12:45And I suppose it must have taken quite a while for you to put this together.
12:49Tell me a bit about the process that went into creating
12:53such large works in such a large space.
12:57Yeah, actually, the curator, Met curator Kurt,
13:02met like 10 years ago, 2014,
13:05when we had a show, a small exhibition then.
13:10And and we had a good and the show was very successful.
13:16And and after that, I got involved in a lot of other things.
13:21I was, you know, I'm always like a nomad at that time.
13:24Search and traveling research. That's all I did.
13:27So then I was in the time I opened a residency in Dharamsala.
13:32It's called Dialogue Artist Residency.
13:34I see. OK.
13:36We are being artists, philosophers, scientists
13:38and make the awareness bounce with one another.
13:41That was the idea.
13:42And then at around that time, pandemic was starting.
13:46I came to New York.
13:47And at that time, Kurt said, are you still interested in one more?
13:51Let me do a good show.
13:53I said, yeah. And then we looked at the space.
13:55Space was really beautiful.
13:57And then we start working on it.
14:00When we start signed the contract right after two or three days,
14:04we had a lockdown.
14:06And then I and then after five years or so,
14:10and that this show happened, so I worked on it for about over five years.
14:15That's a long time. Yeah.
14:16Yeah. And and then that's the result.
14:19So and also, of course, I have
14:23nine people helping assistance. Right.
14:26So wonderful friends and some are like relatives, you know?
14:30Yeah. Yeah. And
14:33so obviously it's your concept, it's your color.
14:36So I was there was a there is a bit in that video where you say
14:40that every color that goes into it is chosen by you.
14:43Even 50 shades of blue, for instance.
14:46Yeah, I'm really yeah.
14:48And when it comes to art, I think
14:52I yeah, in the very beginning, I asked the permission.
14:55This is where I dance, you know, really greedy.
14:59And of course, I encourage everyone to paint.
15:02So I everybody that works with me are also they're painting.
15:07They show me their work. I comment on it. So it's all good.
15:10But the thing is, yeah, I have to draw everything.
15:14I have to fix the color, everything.
15:16And yeah, I have to be in the studio every day.
15:20But I love it. So I almost sleep there.
15:22So but yeah, yeah, that's that's just my practice.
15:26I write, especially when I pick up the subject matter when I paint.
15:31I make sure I just just get lost in it.
15:34All right, Ron.
15:35And in a way, I really don't connect with outside world.
15:39Yeah. You know, given the scale of the works,
15:43how how do you visualize that number one?
15:47And after that, how do you execute?
15:49Are they great?
15:50I mean, I'm trying to understand because it's so detailed.
15:54Yeah. And it's sometimes it is so symmetrical.
15:58Yeah. It's almost geometrical in some places.
16:02How do you come to that process?
16:04It's I mean, I'm sure it's very taxing as an artist.
16:11I think you pay enough attention,
16:14you start seeing the empty space more like this,
16:18like when I move to like a new studio or office house.
16:24First, you see everything nice.
16:26And then two or three days, oh, there's a crack, small crack.
16:29Oh, this is the thing.
16:31I think our eyes are trained to look, look at something different.
16:37And you force that eye to look at the same thing.
16:41Something magical happens, I think, because the eye doesn't want to get bored.
16:46But at the same time, how to not get bored looking at something completely empty?
16:51I think then within you, things start coming, like the mind starts
16:56just like they get nervous, the mind get nervous to stare at an empty canvas.
17:00And like, hey, how about this shade?
17:03And from inside, they come like, you know, black card, you know.
17:07And but then once there's attention, it's I have noticed something.
17:12I don't know how to put it in words.
17:14You pick a color, you imagine it fits.
17:17It doesn't fit just visually.
17:19It enters visually, but it fits with your whole body.
17:22You know, oh, this color fits.
17:24And you put there.
17:26And then sometimes what I do now, what if I replace this color with logic?
17:30Now I put all these different colors.
17:32Right. None of that work.
17:34And I said, that is so strange.
17:36It seemed like.
17:39In that moment, I went through all the color at once.
17:43OK, but somehow I came up with the color that my whole being
17:48decided, which when I analyze rationally also, it matches.
17:51So and then I call this is called maybe instinct.
17:54What is happening?
17:55You know, and that that thing I can develop more and more when I believe in my attention.
18:02You know, I was looking at the works.
18:05They are sort of reinterpretation of the Mandela tradition,
18:09because some of the motives that you use are very modern, very urban.
18:13In fact, some of them are even very American.
18:16The images. Yeah.
18:17How how did you come to decide that?
18:20Because I think that there is an image of George Floyd.
18:24Yeah, this George Floyd, the Vietnam's first self-immolation.
18:28This Dalai Lama, 25 years old.
18:31Right. I saw that.
18:32Chinese hat, you know, there is, of course, there's all these issues about
18:40world conflicts, Sudan, Palestine.
18:43East Turkestan, Hong Kong.
18:46And so all this basically the second panel is what do you call it?
18:53The VT.
18:55It is when VT happens, what happens?
18:57You know, and the third one is about the Nirodha.
19:01You're talking about how to Nirodha.
19:03And the first one is basically in a way you can look at it.
19:07The first one has many layers.
19:09You can also look at it like, oh, it's talking about something very natural
19:13phenomenon, global warming, air pollution, water pollution, this thing.
19:17But again, if you peel off the layer, maybe it's also talking about Tantra,
19:22the four dimension of existence.
19:24That's how it correlates to four chakras.
19:26And these are all there.
19:27And then it also talks about, you can look at it.
19:30Oh, Judaism talks about some kind of light that a prior to sunrise.
19:38That a prior to sun and everything.
19:40Oh, wait, this Hinduism talk about Chitta, this awareness, this shining, you know.
19:46Oh, wait, they talk about Atman, which means breath.
19:49It's something to do with breath.
19:51Wait, the Islam talk about Ruha.
19:54It's like a breath breathing into.
19:56So I see all religion, you know, talking about different, different perspective.
20:04And I like to, I belong to a generation who always like to look at good things
20:09and common things and what makes us all unifies, you know.
20:15So somebody said in Tibetan, oh, you met a Buddha.
20:19I said, no, no, it's for, I created an ocean.
20:22People come here, some believers, some non-believers, some Hindus,
20:26some Muslim, anybody can come.
20:29But the accent is Tibetan because I was cultured in that way.
20:34But what I'm saying has nothing to do with Tibet.
20:36What I'm saying has more to do with how we are all really connected.
20:41That's what in so many ways Vajrayana or Tantra,
20:45all these words are really emphasizing the center and the surroundings.
20:50Right.
20:51So I like to look at it that way.
20:56In terms of commercializing your works,
20:59because one has to survive too as an artist.
21:02Yes.
21:02Do you make a distinction between the kind of work,
21:05say you've done for the Met, this installation,
21:08and the kind of work you think will sell at various places, including auction houses?
21:13How do you make that distinction?
21:15And if you do, how do you do it?
21:18I've never thought art in that way.
21:21I see.
21:21Yes, it's almost like I have a vision,
21:31and it has to get out of my body, that's all.
21:33I see.
21:34And then afterwards, some would say this, that, you know.
21:40But yes, I'm not worried too much about it.
21:43I mostly think as an artist, I just focus on the work.
21:49I try to preserve that tradition.
21:52And I have an agent who would help me sell.
21:55Oh, I see.
21:55So yeah.
21:56The gallery is Rossin Rossi Gallery.
21:59Yeah, that's where I first communicated with.
22:02Yeah, yeah.
22:02So they're like a perfect team to help me.
22:06I see.
22:06And my wife is there to help me.
22:08So I think much of my practice really depends on their kindness and their work, yeah.
22:17Do you also do other genres of painting?
22:21Say, for instance, the name immediately that comes to my mind is, say,
22:26some form of impressionism, for instance, or abstract expressionism.
22:31Do you engage in those at all?
22:33I do different, but it's like this.
22:38Where can attention be?
22:40It can be anywhere.
22:41It's the same.
22:43Forget about it.
22:43I like poetry.
22:45I like singing.
22:46I studied classical Indian music recently.
22:49Wonderful.
22:49Yeah.
22:50And there I studied swara.
22:52It's also breath.
22:54Swara means also melody.
22:56Swa means self-arising.
22:58Ra means ragini, that fire.
23:00Again, it goes back to chitta.
23:02So I'm always studying.
23:04I always study.
23:06I'm always a student.
23:07And whenever I find somebody who knows something, even it's like making a delicious
23:14I'm right there with the book just to learn and see how it affects my tongue.
23:19And I'm just purely excited to learn from anybody who's paid attention and come up with something beautiful.
23:27And we exchange knowledge, share.
23:29And after all, we have to leave, no?
23:32That's true.
23:33So before we die, just make sure you have a good time with everybody.
23:37It's like a big airport.
23:38Indeed.
23:40Yeah, so I just have good time, learn something.
23:42If I can teach, I'm very fortunate if I get to teach.
23:45And that's all.
23:46I think teaching is one of the most beautiful way of living.
23:50But yeah, so that's all.
23:53Yeah.
23:53What kind of other paintings do you like just to look at?
23:59I really like to see a painting where I somehow see the artist is completely lost.
24:11And then maybe I can also get lost, you know?
24:14Or some art will just pull you.
24:16I think it's almost like the artwork is consecrated by artist's attention.
24:21And in Tibetan tradition, there's a consecration tradition of paintings and all these things.
24:27And there's also a saying in Tibetan tradition where if you're an expert,
24:31keba, if you pay really attention, you don't need to consecrate.
24:35It's automatically consecrated.
24:37Right.
24:38This is such a beautiful saying like that.
24:42And so for me, myself, I work with pastel, watercolor, oil, acrylic, performance, digital.
24:52I try to...
24:54I look at it more like these are results of my study.
24:58And matte is also a result of my study.
25:01It's actually a student painting.
25:02But also I don't, like you earlier, offer the matte different kind.
25:06No, for me, every wall is a matte wall.
25:09And of course, matte is wonderful.
25:13More people go and look.
25:14But for me, I had shows at a basement, which is as beautiful and as precious as the show in matte.
25:22And that's my practice.
25:24And not that I'm being too bold, like prattling or something.
25:29But just I genuinely believe that.
25:31Every painting I do, I do it for, you know, to get attention.
25:38Right.
25:39You know, looking at some of the pieces, maybe I'm wrong, but tell me what you think.
25:45I also did see some Japanese sort of Yukio-e, in some places, influence.
25:52Have you been exposed to Japanese works in a significant way?
25:56Because at first glance, if I was just looking at it like a blur,
26:02because I'm a great admirer of Yukio-e style of painting, floating world.
26:09And yours is extraordinary in that sense.
26:12It struck me immediately.
26:14I think I have looked at a lot of works.
26:17But this particular name, maybe I might have.
26:19But I've also looked at, when I was in school, I loved Hokusai.
26:23That's the one.
26:26So, in a way, I used to say, like, you know what?
26:29Hokusai has made these great waves hundreds and hundreds of years ago.
26:33And everybody's plucked from it.
26:35Nobody's like, can I?
26:38And I secretly told my friends, I want to update and make this new wave.
26:45And then for that, I first panel, I give tribute to him.
26:49But it doesn't look like this wave.
26:51I felt that.
26:53And then I went to Astoria Atlantic Ocean.
26:57We have that part.
26:59So I always go there.
27:00And I decided, you know what?
27:02If I really want to always go to the source, my always theory is,
27:05I talk to some scholar, and I say, which scripture?
27:08And I go to the source.
27:09So here also, I went to the source, looked at the wave for months,
27:14of the Atlantic wave, months looking at it.
27:17And made about like one square feet.
27:21Just focus on that.
27:22Maybe throw small stones and see how it moves.
27:25And then I'm moving with it.
27:27It's almost like I'm trying to find a breath pattern of the ocean
27:31that goes like this.
27:33And then I say, OK, now can I move water like this?
27:37And then I try, and it happens.
27:39And then somehow it works.
27:41So all the ocean that you see is Atlantic Ocean I bought in the Met
27:46where the water is all from there.
27:49Of course, I think I'm influenced by all great masters of the past.
27:55My own Tibetan tradition, we had like great, great painters
28:00still living, some elders.
28:02Absolutely.
28:03And so they all have been very kind.
28:08Even some we haven't met, but they still have been kind just by,
28:12from a distance, you can see their work and appreciate.
28:17So many artists, beautiful, wonderful artists.
28:20We did wonderful shows at Rubin and all.
28:23But then, right now, they all, I think, couldn't come here.
28:27They couldn't reside, they couldn't stop.
28:29So, yeah, I really like to be influenced.
28:35And so I collect past masters as my trophy.
28:41And I'm very happy and proud that I can learn from them.
28:46A lot of European masters of the late 18th century and 19th century,
28:53people like Vincent van Gogh, for instance.
28:56Van Gogh was a passionate admirer of Japanese painting.
29:00In fact, he picked a lot of the ideas from Japanese painting.
29:05I'm sure if he had been exposed to Tibetan paintings,
29:08he would have done the same.
29:10Unfortunately, he wasn't.
29:12I loved Van Gogh.
29:14When I first went to University of Colorado, I was 17 years old.
29:20And when I first encountered Van Gogh,
29:23it was through a movie, actually, at the library.
29:26Kurt Douglas.
29:28Kurt Douglas, that's a classic.
29:30And we watched and I thought, wow.
29:34And it inspired me so much that I started carrying a pipe.
29:38It doesn't suit me.
29:41And I loved.
29:43And all I could take from it is he painted at 27.
29:47He died at 37.
29:49Ten years he dedicated.
29:51And you can still, there's 100,000 drums of him.
29:54And I studied more and more.
29:57And I realized, you know what?
29:59If Milarepa has painted, he would be Van Gogh.
30:02If Van Gogh has meditated, he would be Milarepa.
30:05So I had this, the same kind of dedication was there.
30:09And I thought, that I really got the pity instruction from Van Gogh.
30:15Fascinating, yeah.
30:17And then I have one professor, James McLehaney.
30:20And he gave me another really unbelievable, what you call, mantra.
30:25And when I was young, I'm always asking,
30:27do the colors expensive?
30:29Come on, oil painting color, you know?
30:31And I come from a modest family.
30:33So I'm painting it slowly.
30:35And every color I'm asking,
30:38if I paint it red.
30:40At first, he was like, yeah, yeah.
30:42It might look good. Try it.
30:44And I'll try.
30:46And then the next, I would say,
30:48and then I did that five, six times.
30:50And then James McLehaney, he came and he said,
30:52next time, I was tensing.
30:54Next time, you just ask the canvas.
30:56You don't ask me.
30:58And then I asked,
31:00why did it take me months to understand that, you know?
31:05And then from then on, I only asked canvas.
31:13And amazing thing is, at the exhibition,
31:17James McLehaney, the professor,
31:19came at the talk and we met.
31:21And after this long years,
31:23like 20 some years,
31:25and I was reminding him,
31:27yeah, that was your instruction.
31:29I followed and I got here,
31:31all due to his simple instruction.