LIVE Patriots Daily: Doug Kyed Talks Patriots Dysfunction and Belichick’s Future

CLNS Media Sports Network

Taylor Kyles of CLNS Media hosts a live "Patriots Daily" featuring Doug Kyed from the Boston Herald. In this session, Doug and Taylor delve into the current dysfunction within the Patriots organization and speculate on Bill Belichick’s future with the team.  Support Doug's Family at: https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-the-kyed-family?utm_campaign=p_na+share-sheet&utm_medium=copy_link&utm_source=customer  This episode of the Patriots Daily Podcast Show  is brought to you by:  SeatGeek! Use code DREAMERSPRO for $20 off your first SeatGeek order! Visit SeatGeek.com ! With NFL, NBA and NHL seasons in full swing you don’t want to miss out - SeatGeek has your tickets to every game!  FanDuel Sportsbook, the exclusive wagering parter of the CLNS Media NetworkRight now, NEW customers get ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS in BONUS BETS with any winning FIVE DOLLAR MONEYLINE BET! So, visit https://FanDuel.com/BOSTON and kick off the NFL season. FanDuel, Official Partner of the NFL. 21+ and present in MA. Hope is here. First online real money wager only. $5 pregame moneyline wager required. First onlinereal money wager only. $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable bonus bets that expire 7 days after receipt. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. GamblingHelpLineMa.org or call (800)-327-5050 for 24/7 support. Play it smart from the start! GameSenseMA.com or call 1-800-GAM-1234. ￼￼  #Patriots #NFL #NewEnglandPatriots

Transcript

00:00 [MUSIC]

00:10 What's going on everyone?

00:15 Taylor Kyle's here from CLNS Media.

00:17 We're just a few days out from the Patriots season finale against the New York Jets.

00:22 And what could potentially be Bill Belichick's last game

00:25 as the head coach for the Patriots.

00:27 Now, with that kind of topic surrounding this game, there's been a lot of news dropping.

00:32 And today, the Boston Herald released a piece that detailed some of the dysfunction

00:37 that's been going on within the Patriots organization going all the way back to this summer.

00:41 Actually going all the way back to the spring, long time.

00:44 Who wrote this piece?

00:45 We had Andrew Callahan, obviously part of the CLNS Media family, as well as Doug Kide.

00:50 I have Doug with me here today, buddy.

00:53 How are you doing?

00:54 And let the people know how exactly this came together as much as you can disclose,

00:57 because this was a bit of a banger.

00:59 [LAUGH]

01:00 I appreciate that, Taylor.

01:01 Thank you for having me on.

01:04 Yeah, we've been kind of planning a piece all season,

01:07 especially when things really went haywire to figure out what exactly went wrong here.

01:12 Like how did things go from bad in 2022 to even worse in 2023

01:18 when everyone was really expecting the team to be much better this season?

01:22 I certainly expected them to be a playoff contender.

01:25 Everyone thought the offense would be in much better shape with Bill O'Brien in charge

01:29 and Mac Jones in another year with a more capable coordinator,

01:33 but that obviously didn't come to be.

01:35 So we wrote a piece on Mac Jones back in October,

01:37 and then this one was kind of taking a little bit more of a zoomed out look

01:40 at the offense and the team in general, looking at what went wrong.

01:44 So I talked to over a dozen people around the organization, within the organization,

01:49 to try to kind of answer that question and figure out what all the ongoings were this season.

01:55 Yeah, and you mentioned the staff because offensively, I think with personnel,

02:00 there were plenty of debates thinking like, you know, offensive line, especially tackle,

02:05 and then wide receiver.

02:06 You know, it wasn't great, but you thought, hey, they've got Bill O'Brien.

02:09 Like you said, Adrian Clem.

02:10 You thought they'd be able to, you know, make some chicken soup out of chicken,

02:14 you know what, and kind of get this thing together.

02:17 But there were a lot of parts of your guys' story that were really shocking.

02:21 The first of those I found stunning was that Belichick actually wanted to bring back Matt Patricia

02:27 despite all of his struggles and the fact that even Robert Kraft said

02:30 that Patricia was not put in a position to succeed last season.

02:33 So please go into detail on what exactly happened with the staff

02:37 and why there were some kind of square pegs being put in the round holes.

02:41 Yeah, we, I think that if Belichick had had it his way, then yeah,

02:46 would have brought back Patricia for another year, ran it back, see how that went.

02:51 But, you know, I think it was pretty easy to, or it was easy to see that things went wrong last year.

02:57 And I think that, you know, Joe, Judge, Emma, and Patricia were very easy scapegoats for that.

03:03 I know that there's still people within the organization who don't feel like they did

03:08 that bad of a job given the circumstances that they were under that basically like,

03:14 they're viewed as like smart football coaches in general.

03:18 And that, you know, they're not offensive coordinators.

03:20 So they weren't, they didn't really know how to put together like a full offensive plan last year,

03:25 but they could put plays together that allowed the team to score points.

03:29 Like just like basic right down to it.

03:32 And they actually did that a better job.

03:35 I mean, quite frankly, they score more points this season.

03:38 And I'm certainly not, I am 1000% not saying that Matt Patricia should have been back as offensive coordinator

03:46 or that Joe Judge should have been involved in the offense.

03:48 But when it comes down to it, they did a better job with the offense last year,

03:54 bare bones than what Bill O'Brien did this year.

03:56 But you can certainly understand from the team perspective,

03:59 you want to bring in a more experienced coordinator than Bill O'Brien comes in.

04:03 But it seems like even he was hamstrung by the fact that Bill still wanted to keep his assistants on staff.

04:10 Bill O'Brien brought in Will Lawing as the tight ends coach.

04:13 That was the one guy that he brought in with him from his time in Houston, from his time in Alabama.

04:17 But otherwise, outside of Adrian Clem, it was the guys who were around last year.

04:21 And that's a former NFL safety and Vinnie Censeri coaching the running backs.

04:26 That's a former college defensive back and linebacker, Ross Douglas coaching wide receivers.

04:30 Troy Brown, who obviously had a great career with the Patriots,

04:34 but didn't do any coaching until he came back to coach the wide receivers.

04:38 And those were the real problem areas were on the offensive line and with the wide receivers.

04:43 So I know that there was frustration around O'Brien and around the front office,

04:50 just about how well the wide receivers and offensive line specifically were being developed by the coaches in place.

04:58 And then you've seen, obviously, Adrian Clem leave the team over health-related reasons.

05:01 Ross Douglas has left the team for Syracuse.

05:04 And I don't know.

05:06 I mean, I don't think that necessarily Bill O'Brien was put in the best position to succeed,

05:12 since he wasn't able to assemble maybe the staff that he wanted.

05:15 But yeah, kind of a messy situation there from the start.

05:20 Yeah, and you mentioned Adrian Clem actually confronted Matt Groh about thinking he didn't have enough talent.

05:26 I think that was pretty obvious.

05:28 Like, you go into the season where Antonio Maffi and Sidney So, those are guys who were intriguing.

05:33 You know, you figure those are developmental guys.

05:35 Sidney So, they tried to put him in tackle.

05:37 That obviously didn't work.

05:38 Then he debuted at guard.

05:39 And you know, it still wasn't great.

05:41 It's a rookie in his first game against the Eagles defensive front.

05:44 That's a pretty tough position to be in.

05:46 But even still, could you go a little more into detail about what some of Adrian Clem's issues were,

05:50 and why it was such a weird fit with Bill O'Brien schematically,

05:54 as well as what happened when Adrian Clem had to leave.

05:57 And then you had the issues in terms of offensive linemen being taught differently,

06:01 which Trent Brown went into detail about.

06:03 Yeah, definitely.

06:04 Yeah, Adrian Clem brought in, I think that the expectation was that like,

06:08 all right, Adrian Clem learned under Dante Skarnecchia,

06:11 he'll coach the same way that Patriots offensive line coaches have coached forever.

06:15 And that wasn't necessarily the case, that he brought in some more new school methods,

06:18 wasn't really what the Patriots were expecting,

06:21 wasn't the best carryover for the offensive linemen who are still in place.

06:26 And I had heard that Adrian Clem had some issues with

06:30 the athleticism of the offensive linemen that had been brought in.

06:34 And, you know, you could think a couple ways about that.

06:38 Obviously, maybe with Riley Reif, that would have been the case,

06:40 an older offensive lineman that they signed to presumably play right tackle.

06:45 Certainly not as athletic as he was when he was drafted by the Lions back in whatever it was,

06:49 2011 or 2012.

06:51 But one person did raise the point that, you know, if you're going to criticize

06:55 Tyrone Wheatley Jr. or Vidarion Lowe or Calvin Anderson,

06:59 it's not necessarily their athleticism that you would take issue with.

07:05 It's them as technicians.

07:07 And that's really more the coaching than it is them as pure players.

07:13 So I think that is some of that infighting between the coaching staff and front office.

07:18 And ultimately, it doesn't go anywhere because Bill O'Brien, Bill Belichick is in charge of both.

07:24 So like the front office and the coaching staff have issues.

07:28 They're going to the same person.

07:30 So I don't think that those things outside of, you know,

07:32 some conversations or blowups between Clem and Matt Groh necessarily went anywhere too sour.

07:39 But that was one thing that I definitely heard is that Adrian Clem was not happy

07:43 with athleticism on the offensive line.

07:45 And I mean, just as far as like, yeah, you have to count on rookies, unfortunately,

07:52 almost right away.

07:53 And, you know, Michael Weno's injury didn't help.

07:56 Cole Strange's injury didn't help.

07:57 But that relates to why Michael Weno at least started as a guard is that

08:02 Patriots really didn't want to plan to go into the season starting both rookies,

08:06 Siddy Sow and Antonio Moffey at guard.

08:09 They wanted a veteran presence in there.

08:11 I think that's one reason why it did take so long to move O'Weno over to right tackle.

08:14 - And you mentioned the athleticism was pretty glaring because, you know,

08:18 Patriots, they like to have a diverse run scheme.

08:20 I think that was one of the things that Adrian Clem mentioned is that, you know,

08:23 you want to be able to do different things, not be super predictable in your scheme.

08:27 But we've seen, they tried all like the outside zone stuff,

08:30 especially early on in the season, like against the Cowboys.

08:33 It was a disaster.

08:35 They just didn't have the horses to do it.

08:36 Like David Andrews doing his best out there,

08:39 but he's an older guy who can only get so far when it comes to explosiveness

08:42 against these modern defensive lines.

08:44 And you really saw it in recent games, really from mid-season to the end,

08:48 it's really just been man or duo and inside zone.

08:51 They're just trying to get downhill and it works,

08:53 but it also limits what you can do from a play calling perspective.

08:56 So with all of that in mind, and again, Bill O'Brien,

08:59 it feels like he's probably going to be back.

09:01 Now, nothing is set in stone.

09:02 There's so many moving pieces.

09:04 We really don't know what's going to happen,

09:05 but if Bill O'Brien is brought back,

09:07 do you think it's going to be a situation or should be a situation where

09:11 they kind of clean house with the non-Bill O'Brien guys like Troy Brown?

09:14 I don't think he's shown enough in terms of developing the receiver spot.

09:18 Like you have a Taekwon Thornton and Demario Douglas has been one of the best receivers

09:22 and rookie receivers in Belichick's time with the team,

09:25 but the route running from a weekly basis is really inconsistent.

09:29 It's just, you don't understand what exactly is going on there.

09:32 So do you think that it'd be better if Bill O'Brien could bring in his guys

09:35 and Adrian Clem already dealing with health issues,

09:37 but really is it already time to move on after just one year?

09:41 I think it certainly could be.

09:42 Yeah. I think, especially with Clem, I'd be a little bit surprised at this point.

09:46 I'd be surprised if he was back,

09:48 just because there were some people right away who thought like, all right,

09:52 this is not a great fit, you know, from what we're,

09:56 the expectation was when he was brought in.

09:58 And yeah, for Bill O'Brien, like if he is brought back,

10:03 I think it ultimately depends on if Bill Belichick is back too.

10:06 But I do think that it would benefit Bill O'Brien

10:09 to bring in the guys that he would want to coach with,

10:12 the guys that he would handpick.

10:14 And I don't think that, you know,

10:15 the guys who were on staff are guys that he would have handpicked.

10:18 I've heard good things about Vinny Censeri as a running backs coach,

10:22 for good things about Will Lyong as a tight ends coach.

10:24 I've also heard that, quite honestly,

10:26 like it's kind of hard to mess up those positions too much.

10:30 That might be a little bit less true with tight ends than it is with running backs,

10:35 but like you're just dealing with so few players at those positions

10:39 where you're dealing with like three or four running backs,

10:41 three or four tight ends versus offensive line,

10:43 including practice squad, you're dealing with like 12 guys.

10:46 They all have to work as a unit.

10:47 Five guys are on the field at the same time.

10:49 That's just such an important position to be coaching on.

10:52 And then wide receivers, I think is a pretty important one as well

10:56 to have someone who knows what they're doing, who is experienced.

11:01 I think that you even look back at some of the other offensive coordinator candidates

11:08 who were brought in with Adrian Clem and Bill O'Brien.

11:11 There were a couple of wide receivers coaches in there.

11:13 So I don't know this for a fact, but given the way that they

11:17 interviewed Adrian Clem for the offensive coordinator position

11:20 and then gave him the offensive line job,

11:22 I certainly would not be surprised if guys like Sean Jefferson and Keenan McCardell

11:26 were potentially brought in for similar reasons.

11:28 They obviously wound up sticking with the teams that they were in,

11:30 but I think that that kind of showed you back in the beginning

11:34 of this whole offensive coordinator process

11:36 that there wasn't that much confidence in that wide receiver coaching in general.

11:42 - And with Adrian Clem, it really is just an exclamation point

11:45 on what's been a couple of really odd years with the Patriots

11:48 in terms of how they build out their coaching staff.

11:50 The fact that you hire a guy and then he implements his system

11:53 and you're like, "Wait a minute, what's going on?"

11:55 There's got to be some level of, "Well, what were you guys talking about?"

11:58 We all know that he was brought in to interview for head coach,

12:01 but they already have their plan kind of set in stone.

12:03 So a really odd situation there.

12:05 Do you have any insight into what exactly...

12:08 I know you're not behind those closed doors, of course,

12:10 but do you have any insight into what happened there

12:13 and why there was such a significant disconnect?

12:15 - Not fully.

12:17 There's some things that are floating around out there

12:20 and things that we weren't necessarily able to confirm one way or another,

12:24 but it does seem like Belichick was on board with bringing in Adrian Clem

12:29 that he was viewed as the best option that was out there.

12:32 He was a guy who had played under Bill Belichick.

12:35 But we had also heard that since Clem left,

12:41 Bill Belichick has kind of taken over that offensive line group

12:45 and that maybe he's not necessarily the guy

12:48 who's running meetings or running drills.

12:51 I think that would go more on Billy Yates

12:52 and then I think James Ferencz is helping out quite a bit there,

12:55 but that he's the one who's kind of putting that plan together

12:58 and formulating that plan a lot.

13:00 And they've gone back to the old ways,

13:02 the old Dante Skarnecchia ways.

13:04 And I mean, I'll allow you to speak to whether the offensive line play

13:09 has been better or worse since Adrian Clem was gone,

13:12 but like Cole Strange, for one, I thought was playing better

13:16 and I'm not sure exactly how that lines up

13:18 with when Clem left and everything like that.

13:21 But I think that was maybe a slight surprise to players to see like,

13:26 oh, okay, well, all of a sudden our head coach

13:28 is deciding what we do on the offensive line.

13:30 - Yeah, and it's a really hard evaluation period

13:33 because the injuries have been a factor for the entire season.

13:36 As you mentioned, Mike and Winnie with Cole Strange,

13:38 there was a storyline during the training camp and OTAs

13:41 where we're saying, yeah, this is going to be tough.

13:43 Like there was constant pressure, but you figure, okay,

13:45 once they're healthy, they get back into the lineup.

13:47 You have a bit of a weak spot at right tackle,

13:49 but maybe you move some things around, see what happens.

13:52 And as we've seen with Sidney So, it hasn't been perfect,

13:54 but he's had some good games.

13:56 Last week, I thought was one of his best games of his young career.

13:59 Then like you said, Cole Strange actually did speak to him a few times

14:02 because I mean, I feel like he gets such a bad rap

14:05 as a guy who was maybe admittedly overdrafted

14:08 when you consider kind of how long it's taken him

14:10 to kind of get up to speed.

14:11 But he mentioned so many times like, hey,

14:13 we all know that Cole Strange is not a guy who makes excuses,

14:16 but he was saying like he put on more weight in the off season

14:18 so he can handle power better.

14:20 And he was saying, I mean, you can't simulate getting bull rushed.

14:23 You know, you can hit the bags, you can do all that,

14:25 but you need a 350 pound guy who's trying to drive you backwards.

14:29 To really understand how that works.

14:31 And he would always mention chemistry.

14:32 And because I would ask him, you know,

14:34 you got beat on this stunt and these twists,

14:36 and it seems like it's the same thing.

14:37 What's going on there?

14:38 And he said, you just need to know who you're playing next to

14:41 so that you understand, OK, this guy's going to do this.

14:43 I can do this.

14:44 And it's not thinking it's really just playing.

14:46 And with, again, the athleticism, the explosiveness of these defensive lines,

14:50 those split milliseconds matter.

14:52 So I did think Strange was getting better

14:54 because he was feeling healthier.

14:55 I think they started to get a little bit more consistency going.

14:58 Obviously, Trent Brown gets rolled up on him.

15:00 I don't think it's a coincidence that their best came as an offense

15:02 came when the entire offensive line, the way that you were hoping it would turn out.

15:06 Once you know, you got a better idea of what the pieces were going to look like.

15:09 That was the best game they had.

15:10 They looked fantastic.

15:11 Then Trent gets hurt and then you start to see there's a decline

15:14 and he just doesn't look the same.

15:16 But a tough evaluation process for the offensive line.

15:19 But like you said, if you know, Adrian Clemson's philosophies

15:22 weren't really matching up and then you have Bill O'Brien lead the offense,

15:25 but he doesn't have the guys around him who he trusts

15:27 and can create a cohesive unit.

15:29 That's just a tough position to put really multiple members of that staff in.

15:32 We got some more for you.

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16:13 All right.

16:18 So as we all know, one of the biggest issues,

16:20 not only with the team, but with the offense specifically,

16:22 has been the quarterback situation.

16:25 Now, Mac Jones, I actually thought the first two games of the season,

16:28 I thought he was one of the only reasons the offense was actually in those games.

16:32 You know, against the Dolphins, he had the interception of Devontae Parker.

16:35 It wasn't a perfect game, but he showed off some athleticism.

16:37 He was making plays off schedule.

16:39 And it's like, I've never seen this version of Mac Jones.

16:42 Maybe we got something.

16:43 Then you go into the Jets game, bad weather, down game.

16:46 You're saying, all right, that's one out of three.

16:47 Brush it off a little bit.

16:48 Then Dallas starts the decline where all the fear that I think

16:52 had just been built up from getting battered and bruised,

16:55 not even just in 2022 and 2023, but also in 2021.

16:59 The kid was taking some really big hits throughout his young career.

17:03 And you started to see all that creep up.

17:05 He starts panicking.

17:06 His decision making goes out the window.

17:09 The only game that the Patriots have had this entire season without a turnover

17:12 was against the Jets.

17:13 And Mac still had a turnover worthy play that the Jets didn't capitalize on.

17:17 Obviously, he lost faith after that just horrendous throw against the Colts,

17:21 where they could have won the game, and he missed a wide open Mike Kisicki.

17:24 And then you saw the transition of Bailey Zappi took over in the second half of the Giants game.

17:29 And it's been Bailey Zappi's show ever since.

17:31 And he has brought some more explosiveness to the offense.

17:34 He scored at least two touchdowns in each of their past four games.

17:36 They've been confident, which you really couldn't say for a while there.

17:40 But even with that change, all has not been well in the quarterback room.

17:44 So can you expand on what you learned, what's going on with that situation,

17:48 and maybe how you think they need to move forward with Bailey Zappi and Mac Jones?

17:52 - Yeah, I think that a lot of what we saw during the summer, where I'm not sure how much you were

17:57 paying attention to this, but you really didn't see Mac Jones and Bailey Zappi speak.

18:03 Like they weren't really warming up next to each other.

18:05 They didn't appear to be helping each other out a lot in practice.

18:09 And that's what I heard from multiple people as well, that they don't communicate well

18:15 in that you could use, so to say, like an adult in the room to push everyone in the right direction.

18:22 Because I think that, you know, Mac Jones had his struggles last year.

18:25 Bailey Zappi comes in and plays better and wins two games.

18:28 Then Mac Jones' struggles continue.

18:30 The thing that messed with them a little bit is Bailey Zappi's success.

18:34 And I think he probably got in his head a little bit.

18:38 And then if you're in that quarterback room and Bailey Zappi's thinking,

18:42 "Hey, I was better than this guy last year. Like, why am I not starting?

18:45 Why am I not even getting an opportunity? Why is this not an actual competition?

18:50 Like, why should I help this guy out?

18:52 And like, why should we help each other out if we're competing with each other?"

18:56 I think that that's ultimately what happened.

18:58 And that's what I heard, like I said, from multiple people that they could have used

19:02 that like grizzled veteran quarterback who was just going to speak positively to both of them.

19:07 Because a lot of the quarterback play, like a lot of the quarterback coaching as well

19:12 that comes from Bill Belichick is, I think, trends negatively.

19:17 And that worked for Tom Brady to constantly have that chip on his shoulder

19:21 and get better and get better and get better.

19:23 But when you're like legitimately struggling in games

19:27 and then the coaching from Bill Belichick is,

19:29 "This is what you did wrong in practice. This is what you did wrong in practice.

19:32 This is what you did wrong in practice."

19:33 I think it does wear on you a little bit.

19:35 So that's another place where you could probably use that veteran presence to say like,

19:39 "Listen, I know that he's saying all this stuff, but you're fine.

19:42 You're doing a good job. Keep up doing these things or whatever."

19:46 I really do think that that's what they would have benefited from in general.

19:50 Because, I mean, you've been around Mac and Billy Zappi.

19:52 Like, they've got different personalities.

19:54 They're different guys.

19:55 They're right around the same age.

19:58 And it would have worked if Mac had been good last year and had never given up.

20:04 Or if that starting job had never been challenged.

20:08 But once he went down and once Billy Zappi started playing better,

20:10 then I think it really did raise some of these issues.

20:13 And I certainly don't think the way that the summer was handled was perfect either.

20:18 But and then basically from there,

20:19 Mac Jones was outperforming Billy Zappi in practice all the way up until like...

20:24 I think it's possible that he's still outperforming him in practice.

20:27 Like that's why Billy Zappi just never got over that hump.

20:31 Even after the Cowboys game, even after the Saints game to start over Mac Jones,

20:35 is that Patriots were saying, "All right, Mac Jones was supposed to be this

20:39 super intelligent quarterback who could make changes at the line of scrimmage.

20:44 And he's not going to make mistakes.

20:46 And maybe he doesn't have the strongest arm.

20:47 Maybe he's not the most athletic guy, but we can trust him."

20:50 And then this year and last year as well, he's just making all these boneheaded mistakes.

20:55 And it's like, "All right, well, what do we even have in this guy?

20:57 Like, what's this guy's strengths necessarily at this point?"

21:00 But when you have Billy Zappi taking over in games and struggling,

21:03 and then when you've seen him struggle in training camp, preseason, and then into the season

21:09 when he's either throwing interceptions or he's on the scout team,

21:12 throwing checkdowns to running backs, and you're like, "This isn't even helpful.

21:16 This guy's not helping right now."

21:18 I think that that is why he was never able to get over that hump until this point.

21:24 And I don't know.

21:26 I mean, it was fun to watch Billy Zappi over the last five games or whatever.

21:31 But I do think that this last game, when you're turning over the ball

21:35 four times in five offensive series, I know the fumble wasn't his mistake.

21:38 And I know the PFF didn't have him charted for any turnover-worthy plays.

21:43 But at a certain point when you're throwing three interceptions in the first half,

21:48 there are things that you can do differently.

21:53 You can throw a pass that's not going to get tipped up by Rizul Douglas

21:57 and picked off by a defensive tackle.

21:58 The miscommunication, yeah, Jalen Rager should have turned around.

22:05 I don't think that was the route that Billy Zappi was expecting,

22:08 but I don't even know where that throw was going to at that point.

22:12 And then the last interception, I thought, was probably the most justifiable to blame

22:20 Billy Zappi for, or the third interception.

22:25 But yeah, it's just been a mess.

22:27 The quarterbacks aren't helping each other out enough.

22:29 And I think that's ultimately what it all comes down to, is that there's a lot of negativity.

22:36 Everyone's in their own head, and no one's really helping each other out enough.

22:40 And when I was reading this, I just kept thinking, "Man,

22:45 be really nice to the head Brian Hoyer right now."

22:47 Because you mentioned how it wears on you, the constant criticism.

22:50 Even Tom Brady got sick of the BS.

22:53 Part of the reason he left was, "I'm just sick of being insulted constantly.

22:57 I got this organization six Super Bowls, and I can't catch a break."

23:00 Obviously, that wasn't the only thing.

23:04 Build this around him with talent.

23:05 There were different factors.

23:06 For a young quarterback, of course, that starts to wear on you when you don't have a guy like

23:10 Brian Hoyer who can maybe help lift you up.

23:13 And then wasn't he known in practice for being the guy who would just sling it?

23:16 He would go for the deep.

23:17 He would take all these aggressive chances.

23:19 And maybe somebody to remind Zappi, "Hey, man, you're trying to give them a look."

23:22 It doesn't help anybody if you're checking down to somebody who's wide open.

23:26 They need the rep so they can learn.

23:28 And obviously, the situation last year probably soured Brian Hoyer's opinion of being with the

23:32 team.

23:33 Then he went off with Josh McDaniels to join the Raiders.

23:35 So, so many chances it feels like where they could have salvaged something here,

23:40 and it just was handled so poorly.

23:42 Do you think-

23:43 I also think, just jumping in real quick.

23:45 Like the Trace McSorley thing, maybe he could have, he wasn't necessarily competing for the

23:50 job, but he was just so bad during the summer that you couldn't really continue on with

23:53 Trace McSorley.

23:55 And then the Matt Corral thing happened, and he had his own issues.

23:58 And then Will Greer, I think, was maybe trying to do that third quarterback Brian Hoyer thing.

24:03 But he's still a young guy.

24:05 He doesn't even know the offense.

24:07 So how much can he help out there?

24:09 And it's just the turnover there, I think, hasn't helped either.

24:11 Absolutely.

24:12 And then that's without even touching Malik Cunningham.

24:15 And the fact that everybody was pining for him to get an opportunity,

24:19 who knows how much that would have galvanized the team.

24:21 Obviously, we saw a little bit of a boost with Bailey Zappi, but imagine with somebody who

24:25 unanimously had the support of the team what that could have meant.

24:27 So moving forward, I do think that Bailey Zappi has shown enough where maybe he is a

24:33 quality spot starter, backup going forward, where you can go in and say, okay, you know,

24:37 if we need somebody to go in, if we draft a quarterback and they're not ready, what have you.

24:42 Assuming you have a better offensive line and a good supporting cast,

24:45 then maybe Bailey Zappi looks better because we've seen him play some pretty solid ball,

24:49 missing his top receiver, top tight end, top running back, top left tackle.

24:53 Like he has not been playing with the most talented guys.

24:56 Do you think that maybe they keep Zappi, they get the young quarterback,

25:00 and then you kind of have to move on from Matt Jones?

25:02 Because it just sounds like a toxic situation.

25:04 Yeah, I think you've got to move on from one of them.

25:06 And I think it might depend on who comes in,

25:10 either as head coach or if they replace the offensive coordinator.

25:13 If Bill O'Brien's back next year, I really just don't think it's worth it to run back

25:18 the Matt Jones experiment.

25:20 Like, how do you then have him retake the backup job over Bailey Zappi?

25:25 I just don't think that that necessarily works.

25:27 So in an ideal world, you get a rookie quarterback in here, whether that's one of the top two,

25:34 Caleb Williams or Drake May, someone like Jane Daniels, or the Michael Pennix, JJ McCarthy,

25:38 Bo Nix, one of those guys, you bring that guy in.

25:41 And then you also probably would want, if it's not Caleb Williams, Drake May, or a top five pick,

25:48 you probably want to bring in a veteran presence to kind of be that bridge.

25:53 And I'm not sure if that can be Bailey Zappi.

25:55 Like, I agree with you that Zappi could be a backup or spot starter.

26:00 I don't know if he can necessarily be a bridge to a rookie quarterback, though.

26:04 Like, I don't think that that's necessarily the best use of Bailey Zappi's talents.

26:09 I think that it would be worth bringing in a Jacoby Brissett or someone else like that

26:13 to do that instead.

26:14 Even, who knows, a Jimmy Garoppolo or something like that to be a bridge over a guy like Bailey

26:19 Zappi.

26:20 But no, if you find a starting quarterback, like a day one starting quarterback, like I said,

26:25 one of those rookies, or like, I don't think that's the best way to do it, but if you got

26:29 Russell Wilson or Kirk Cousins or something like that, then yeah, Bailey Zappi would be a fine

26:33 backup.

26:34 And, but I mean, at the same time, like he learned this year that nothing's guaranteed

26:38 in the NFL.

26:39 Like he got straight up cut out of training camp and preseason.

26:43 So he should know that if he's back with the team in 2024, like that roster spot is not

26:49 guaranteed.

26:50 The only way I could see Mac Jones sticking around is if like they just completely overhauled

26:56 things, went to like a Shanahan style West Coast offense, something like that.

27:00 And like whoever they brought in to run the offense, just like was still in love with Mac

27:04 Jones from his Alabama days.

27:05 I don't necessarily think that would work, but like, let's say it is like Bobby Slowick or

27:10 something like that.

27:10 Like maybe he just really wants to work with Mac Jones, really loves Mac Jones and like

27:15 tries to make it work that way.

27:16 But it would just be such a tough sell for Patriots fans to be like, all right, we're

27:21 running it back with Mac Jones for a, for a fourth straight year.

27:24 You know?

27:25 Yeah.

27:26 It's days like this.

27:26 You really miss the Wolfpack, you know?

27:28 Like we had Brady Brissett, like obviously the talent would be nice, but also just like

27:33 those guys seem like they really got along and that was a really healthy situation.

27:37 And now, you know, the video where they were coming out of the tunnel last week, you have

27:41 Nathan work and Bailey's Abby and Mac Jones trailing 30 yards behind where it's like,

27:46 this is a really bizarre look because what teams do you see the quarterbacks trot out

27:51 like paces behind each other?

27:53 It's just bizarre.

27:54 Yeah.

27:54 And like, I mean, there are still some, some questions about Mac Jones maturity, which

28:00 I certainly don't think helps when he's in the position that he is.

28:03 Um, you know, I think that Nathan Rourke is kind of rolling with the punches right now

28:09 as the third quarterback, like gets brought in.

28:12 From a fire hose right now, just trying to figure out where to go.

28:14 Right.

28:15 A hundred percent.

28:15 Yeah.

28:16 Brought in three weeks before the season has no idea what his future holds in new England

28:20 or anything like that.

28:21 But, um, I think that he's kind of trying to go about this the right way too, just cause

28:26 like it, for one reason or another, like I've just kind of talked to him a lot in the locker

28:30 room because he's a new guy and I'm like, Hey, what's going on or whatever.

28:33 He seems to be handling this all the right way, but yeah, it's definitely a bizarre situation.

28:37 Like you said, to see Bailey's happy and Nathan Rourke run out Mac Jones paces behind them.

28:41 And I'm for him, it's been like for both of those guys, it's been a tough season.

28:46 Bailey's happy with cut out of, out of training camp and Mac Jones lost his starting job.

28:50 So like neither one of those guys has had a very fun six months here.

28:53 Absolutely.

28:55 Now we got to get to Bill Belichick because we kind of talked around him, but there was

29:00 a lot of good stuff about him before we do a quick word from our pals over at Seat Geek.

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30:13 All right, so the Patriots defense has actually been a legitimate bright spot.

30:18 If they had a remotely competent offense, I think this is a team that can actually make

30:22 some noise in the playoffs just because they have looked like a championship caliber defense.

30:26 But obviously the offense has just been so putrid.

30:30 We talk about special teams as well, but mostly the offense has just been so bad.

30:34 It's really been impossible at times for them to gain any kind of momentum.

30:37 What did you hear about Belichick?

30:39 Where he stands in terms of Belichick, the head coach, and also Belichick, the general

30:43 manager, and we talked about the staff building and everything like that, but also personnel

30:47 wise.

30:47 Yeah, I mean, really, I heard good things about Bill Belichick, the head coach, that

30:52 he is in there with the team saying, like, these are the things we need to do.

30:57 These are the things that they're going to do to us.

31:00 This is what we can't do.

31:02 And like everything is exactly how he's saying it when games come around on Sunday, but they

31:08 don't have the talent to do anything about it on offense.

31:10 And that is like Bill Belichick's doing and undoing like he knows what they need to do.

31:16 He just hasn't acquired the talent to do it.

31:19 So that's it's a catch 22 where like, yeah, you would absolutely love to keep around Bill

31:25 Belichick, the head coach, Bill Belichick, the defensive mind, but it probably can't

31:31 come with Bill Belichick, the personnel maker, Bill Belichick, the offensive staff, you know,

31:39 putting together the offensive staff or whatever.

31:41 So it is tough.

31:42 Like if Bill Belichick was willing to concede personnel duties and allow Bill O'Brien to

31:48 form his perfect offensive staff, then like, yeah, absolutely.

31:50 Absolutely.

31:51 Do you want to keep Bill Belichick around?

31:52 But I just, I don't know how much longer this team can survive if Bill Belichick is

31:57 the one making all the personnel decisions, especially on offense, because it just has

32:01 not gone well.

32:02 I will say that like from everyone that I talked to, there's been a lot of questions about

32:08 why the Patriots like didn't sign or acquire better offensive line talent.

32:12 They just didn't like it this off season.

32:15 Like they did not like the options in free agency.

32:17 They didn't love the options in the draft.

32:20 And they've pointed out to me that like, Hey, if you look at those guys who are available

32:25 in free agency in the draft, like look at their pressure numbers, they're not doing

32:29 well.

32:29 Like, like we just like, we didn't necessarily make bad decisions when it comes to this.

32:35 And the other thing that I was told was that like, yeah, like if you're just, you know,

32:40 playing, they didn't mention it this way, but like, if you're just like playing mad

32:44 and you're trying to find an offensive tackle, then like, yeah, you just like sign one and

32:49 plug them in and play them or whatever.

32:51 But like the way that they phrase it to me is that like, we're building a team, like

32:54 this is going to be a long-term commitment.

32:56 And if we don't like this player, then we don't want to sign this player.

32:59 Like we don't want to just like force something to bring him in.

33:02 So obviously the Patriots definitely could have acquired better offensive talent this

33:07 off season, but they didn't love the options.

33:10 I will say though, on the other hand, that there were people wondering back in March

33:15 and April, like, why don't we have a traditional slot receiver?

33:19 Why don't we have that third down back that Bill O'Brien, you know, did so well with from

33:25 2009 to 2011, like when he had Wes Welker and he had, you know, Kevin Falk and like

33:30 Danny Woodhead and all these guys that were around in that time period.

33:34 And people were kind of scratching their head being like, what exactly are we doing on offense?

33:37 And then they did eventually find that guy in DeMario Douglas, but he's had to play a

33:43 lot of Z since Kendrick Bourne went down.

33:45 And he also, they mentioned this, that like, they probably hurt themselves by benching

33:52 him the way that they did when he fumbled in that game, because that the offense probably

33:56 could have built itself up a little bit better if they had continued that continuity with

34:01 DeMario Douglas and the offense, but they bench him for fumbling, misses a game or whatever

34:06 it is out of the offense.

34:08 And then he gets the concussions and misses time.

34:10 Like, I think the offense would be in better shape if DeMario Douglas had played a full

34:14 season, whether that was based on not being benched or not having the injuries with him

34:19 in that slot the entire year.

34:21 I fully agree with the wide receiver and DeMario Douglas and the offensive line.

34:25 I will say I was in the same boat this off season.

34:28 I'm looking at the free agents and I'm like, Bill's not going to overpay just because there's

34:32 a need.

34:32 And there's no one here who's good enough to get the kind of money from the Patriots

34:36 that they're going to get elsewhere.

34:37 And even in the draft, like I did, they need offense to tackle desperately.

34:41 And were there people available?

34:43 Yes.

34:43 I'm not mad that they got Christian Gonzalez where, and then beyond him, I think, you know,

34:48 DeJuan Jones, I understand that it's frustrating.

34:51 They didn't get him, but you have to remember a lot of people passed on DeJuan Jones.

34:55 There were clearly something about him.

34:57 I think it was just that they, this is just from what I've heard that they weren't sure

35:00 how committed he was to football or something like that.

35:03 And I mean, with the Patriots, we understand that's significant for them because buying

35:06 with that team is huge because it's as close to the military as you're going to get in

35:10 the NFL.

35:10 So, you know, in the draft and then other guys you can get later in the draft, they were

35:15 really guards and they were also not developed.

35:17 So it would have been a reach.

35:19 What I think was the biggest mistake is the fact that they haven't invested significant

35:23 capital in offensive tackle in years.

35:25 You can see Yodney, Kajus, but even still like that was kind of, you know, you're hoping

35:30 you develop him, but it wasn't a guy where you really, they took him and you're like,

35:32 Oh, he's really going to do something for us.

35:34 The last time they got someone like that was Isaiah Wynn.

35:37 And throughout his entire career, he proved to be someone who was pretty good when he

35:41 was playing at the top of his game.

35:43 Obviously, Scar loves him.

35:44 And that's, I think, pretty significant.

35:46 You can criticize him all you want, but if Scar has faith in him and thinks he's a tackle,

35:49 I'm taking his word for it, but they didn't do anything else.

35:52 You get Trent Brown, that's been a toxic relationship where, you know, he kind of does whatever

35:57 he wants just because he's got them handcuffed.

35:59 And it got to the point where they were like, all right, you're just going to stand in the

36:02 middle of a field and look around while stuff's going on.

36:04 Yeah, I'm sorry.

36:04 We can't play anymore.

36:06 And it just became an even worse situation.

36:08 So yeah, like last off season, I didn't really fault them for not taking an offensive tackle

36:13 or overspending for one, but the fact that they didn't address it for years with a pocket

36:18 quarterback in Mac Jones, who you knew needed help, who needed time, who needed to be protected.

36:23 So his cerebral play style and all that accuracy could really flourish.

36:27 And you didn't address it.

36:28 I'm curious how you feel about, you know, how they could have handled it any better,

36:32 because just declining to do anything about it for so long was a bizarre move.

36:37 I even look at, so Bill Barnwell put out his All-Pro team this week.

36:42 I think it was on like Monday or something like that.

36:43 And you've got Joe Tooney on there and you've got Shaq Mason on there.

36:48 And like how much better would this offensive line be right now

36:52 if you had Trent Brown at left tackle, Joe Tooney at left guard,

36:56 David Andrews at center, Shaq Mason at right guard and Michael Wynne at right tackle.

37:00 And I know that like it's tough to make all of those pieces fit perfectly together and like

37:05 figure out the contract situation.

37:07 But like you look at the Eagles, the Eagles carry over the same offensive line

37:11 year after year after year, and they have one of the best offensive lines

37:14 year after year after year.

37:15 So like that's a position that you just have to invest in.

37:18 They were willing to franchise tag Joe Tooney for one year and then didn't sign him

37:22 to the long-term extension.

37:23 I think they were kind of playing games with that.

37:25 Shaq Mason, they trade because obviously they had Michael Wynne in place.

37:29 They wanted to draft Cole Strange, but just like at a certain point,

37:32 you've just got to invest in these guys,

37:34 figure out the best five and keep rolling with it for as long as possible.

37:37 And they just didn't do that.

37:39 So I think that still doesn't necessarily answer like developing an offensive tackle,

37:46 but like they do have one in Michael Wynne.

37:48 When Trent Brown is invested, he's still a very good player.

37:52 And I think that the overall play of the offense and the offensive line in general

37:57 is how things got to this point with Trent Brown, plus the injuries.

38:00 Because once he got injured and once he knew he wasn't going to get that,

38:04 those full incentives that he had signed for in September,

38:07 like it was just, it's become a miserable situation there.

38:10 And we've seen that unfold with, like you said, the way that he was playing,

38:14 all him missing practice now, him being the healthy scratch.

38:19 It's just an untenable situation now.

38:21 But I do think that there was a way to avoid that coming to a front this way.

38:26 I agree.

38:27 And that's where it goes right back to Bill the GM and just,

38:30 the hope that he's going to change philosophically

38:35 enough that you bring him back in the capacity he probably wants,

38:37 where he's still general manager.

38:39 We've seen how stubborn, just with the coaching staff and the fact that he wouldn't even let his

38:43 offensive coordinator be surrounded by people he trusted.

38:46 It's just hard to assume that, yeah, he's going to flip the switch and say,

38:50 "Okay, we need to invest in the offensive line."

38:51 You really don't know.

38:53 And we're not going to know until after this week.

38:56 But Doug, thank you so much, man.

38:58 This has been incredibly illuminating.

38:59 The piece was as well.

39:00 Everybody check it out.

39:01 Boston Herald, really, really great stuff.

39:04 Right now, Doug, I want to give you the floor to talk about Hallie.

39:07 If you haven't met Doug, he's fantastic.

39:11 Not only does he do amazing work, but he is honestly one of the kindest people

39:15 that I have met in this business.

39:16 He's made my first year easier with just being a great resource and just a friendly face all the

39:21 time.

39:22 His youngest daughter, Hallie, is dealing with acute myeloid leukemia.

39:26 Unfortunately, I just want you to tell people where they can help you guys out.

39:30 Any information that you could pass on.

39:33 I'm going to put a QR code up here as well, so people can just grab a picture and help out

39:38 with your GoFundMe.

39:38 Yeah, floor is yours, brother.

39:40 And any work or anything, please fire away.

39:42 Yeah, no, I really appreciate that, Taylor.

39:44 And yeah, Hallie is continuing her fight with AML.

39:47 She had a bone marrow transplant, but she did relapse, which was definitely bad news.

39:53 And she's still kind of fighting it.

39:56 We're still trying to figure out what the best plan moving forward for her is.

40:00 She's going to continue to be in and out of the hospital.

40:03 My wife, unfortunately, had to resign from her job so that she could continue to help

40:07 caring for Hallie while I'm working and everything like that.

40:12 So, no, I really appreciate it.

40:13 And honestly, even beyond anything else, just send all the positive thoughts and prayers

40:18 and everything that you can Hallie's way because she's fighting an uphill battle.

40:22 But if anyone can handle this and if anyone can fight this, it's Hallie.

40:25 Absolutely.

40:27 Thank you so much, brother.

40:28 I appreciate you.

40:30 In this chat and just in general, much love, man.

40:32 Thank you all for tuning in.

40:34 As always, take care of yourselves.

40:36 Take care of each other.

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