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Short filmTranscript
00:00Satan is a key figure in Western culture.
00:19He has been transgressing the strictly religious and has been incorporating into society,
00:24through folklore, literature or our childish nightmares.
00:30You can believe in him or not,
00:32but the undoubtable is that as an archetype, as a legendary figure
00:37or as a simple expression of our own inner demons,
00:41Satan has been among us for 20 centuries.
00:45However, there are aspects of his figure that are not so solved,
00:49or at least that raise doubts.
00:52For example, his origin.
00:54How did he incorporate that negative role into the Judeo-Christian religion?
01:01Why does he put Satan, the devil, Lucifer and the demons in the same bag?
01:08Is it real or is it an invention of the Church?
01:11And above all, are we being fair to him?
01:18As in previous occasions, we have prepared a documentary.
01:21And although it is no longer in the form of a colloquium,
01:23different experts will also intervene on the subject.
01:52Satan
01:57He is here, among us.
02:00Or rather, he is still part of us.
02:04Hated, feared, perhaps secretly admired,
02:09Satan is a fundamental figure in the Judeo-Christian culture,
02:14as important as that of Jesus or that of God.
02:17Because you cannot believe in them without also believing in him.
02:22It is clear that, rationally, intellectually,
02:25most of us are devoid of Satan.
02:27We consider him a myth, a fantasy.
02:30But below the conscience, in the field of feelings, of the affective,
02:36he remains as valid and real as ever.
02:40He is the bad guy in history,
02:42the one who instigates the lowest actions,
02:45the one who, always courting,
02:47uses our weaknesses to push us to sin and win our soul,
02:52as if it were a trophy to take it to its infernal kingdom.
03:00As hateful as it is essential,
03:02because without him, the drama of the spiritual imposed by religion would lack argument.
03:10But who is or what is Satan?
03:14What is his story?
03:18In the popular spirit, in the literary or philosophical,
03:22Satan is contemplated in two different ways.
03:30One represents him with dignity,
03:32as the protagonist of a tragedy.
03:35He is the fallen angel,
03:37the beautiful and powerful angel
03:39who, fearing that the newly created man
03:42takes away his privileged position in the love of God,
03:45rebels against the one he loves
03:48and is thrown from heaven.
03:53The other version, the most widespread,
03:55is that of a grotesque, repulsive devil,
03:58compendium of all that is unpleasant,
04:01without elegance or dignity,
04:03destined to inspire horror or disgust in the uncivilized people
04:07and that the Church tended to enhance
04:10as the most convenient image for its catechizing strategy.
04:20But neither version is true,
04:23at least in its roots.
04:25Satan and the devil identified,
04:27they were confused in one,
04:29just over 2,000 years ago.
04:32The concept that Christianity has of this character
04:36is exactly the same that the Jews had in the life of Jesus.
04:41But before, in their origins,
04:44they were different figures,
04:46with totally independent functions and characteristics.
04:51Let's start with Satan.
04:53At first, he was not or was not a proper name.
04:57In the Hebrew Bible, the term Satan is used as a generic
05:01and is equivalent to enemy, adversary,
05:04applying it indistinctly to men or spirits.
05:09When he appears identified as a specific character,
05:12Satan is an ordinary angel,
05:14one more angel at the service of Yahweh.
05:17In this case, with the function of prosecutor,
05:20verifying the degree of virtue, of dedication to God that men have.
05:24That is his mission in the book of Job.
05:27Yahweh boasts of the righteousness and mercy of Job,
05:30to which Satan argues, not without reason,
05:33that it is easy when everything goes well for one,
05:36but that if misfortunes come,
05:38perhaps that kindness turns into hatred
05:41and Job ends up reneging on God.
05:46It is Yahweh who, accepting Satan's argument as good,
05:49orders him to leave Job in the ruin,
05:52to give him a horrible illness,
05:55to leave him without a family.
05:57If it were not for the symbolic passage,
06:00both Yahweh and Satan are quite inhuman.
06:04In fact, the only one who is good in this story is Job.
06:10Thus, in the ancient biblical texts,
06:13Satan is not the prince of evil, nor does he act on his own,
06:17but at the service of Yahweh, like the rest of the angels.
06:23Then, in later texts,
06:25he will be progressively defined as a tempter,
06:29as an instigator of man to sin or face God.
06:37And since we are after the clue of the identity of the devil,
06:41let's make it clear that the name of Lucifer, so widespread,
06:45has nothing to do with our character.
06:49That metaphor of a fallen angel, the most beautiful of angels,
06:53the lighthouse that rushes to the abyss,
06:56is pure fantasy of some Christian authors.
07:01The error comes from a text of Isaiah that says so.
07:06How have you fallen from the heavens, Lucifer, son of the dawn?
07:10Have you been overthrown to the earth, ruler of the nations?
07:15What did you say in your heart?
07:17I will ascend to heaven.
07:19Above the stars of God I will raise my throne
07:23and sit on the Mount of Reunion.
07:26I will rise to the heights of the clouds,
07:29I will look like the Most High.
07:31Already, Alseol has been precipitated,
07:34to the deepest part of the well.
07:37Isaiah did not refer in that short poem to Satan,
07:40but to Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon,
07:44whose arrogance had been overcome by the power of Yahweh,
07:48the Jewish God.
07:51We therefore have a Satan,
07:53who is an angel at the service of God
07:56and in charge of the most unpleasant missions
07:59from the human point of view,
08:01such as executing the punishments decided by Yahweh
08:05or tempting man to put him to the test.
08:08On the other hand, a Lucifer who is not such,
08:11only a late Christian invention.
08:13We have the demons.
08:20THE ORIGINS OF SATAN
08:24Let's go back in time,
08:26let's go to the sources,
08:28to the origins of that figure
08:30that constitutes today the central axis of this program.
08:33And let's do it with Antonio Piñero.
08:35Within the Judeo-Christian culture,
08:38Satan is an important figure,
08:41but I imagine that it is not the only negative figure
08:45or that crystallizes evil in it,
08:48but that in other older religions,
08:50or contemporary of Judaism,
08:53there has been a similar figure with similar roles
08:57and that probably has already influenced the genesis of Satan.
09:02Without a doubt, if one thinks, for example,
09:04in the almost foundational book of Judaism,
09:07which is Genesis,
09:09and where it appears in chapter 3
09:11the figure of that snake, which is still not Satan,
09:14and if almost all researchers agree
09:17that all those myths that the book of Genesis collects
09:21and that the Jews make,
09:23come from Babylon,
09:25and from that arch of the fertile Middle East,
09:29it is obvious that in other religions
09:33there is also that somewhat mysterious figure.
09:36But, for example, what would be interesting
09:39is to know, within that primitive Christianity,
09:43what kind of demons, of evil spirits, of beings,
09:47that later, all of them,
09:50were going to crystallize, to converge in the figure of Satan,
09:54were there as a germ of the diabolical.
09:57Yes, I would say that that crystallization has occurred before.
10:02The crystallization of the various figures
10:05of evil spirits, which are fundamentally three,
10:09let's say, for example,
10:11the evil peasant spirits,
10:13which are also linked to the spirits of the giants,
10:17chapter 6 of Genesis,
10:20to the spirits of fallen angels,
10:23to the accusing spirits, or Satan,
10:26all of that is coming together,
10:28and probably 100, 200 years before Christianity,
10:33as it was a, let's say, very complex mentality,
10:37the same people is simplifying it,
10:40in such a way that, in my opinion,
10:42when Jesus begins to speak
10:45that the Kingdom of God is a fight
10:48between that mandate of God that is going to come upon the earth
10:52and the mandate of Satan,
10:54which exists at that moment, which is withdrawn,
10:57at that moment, when Jesus is speaking to the masses of Palestine about that,
11:01there has already been a crystallization.
11:04But 200 or 300 years later,
11:07Christians continue to believe, fundamentally,
11:10in a large cohort of people who are around here,
11:13if it is not explained to us that it was a Christian
11:15who edited the Testament of Solomon,
11:17which is, after all, the Testament of Solomon
11:19is a treaty of demons,
11:21in which he tells you the different classes there are,
11:25with their different effects,
11:27and there are demons of all kinds,
11:29for example, female demons, male demons,
11:32that get inside the women
11:34and that prevent them from their regular functions,
11:37headless demons,
11:39because it turns out that they are from a product,
11:42let's say, that they generate,
11:44or that they are generators of such envy
11:46that they have even lost their heads,
11:48and the only thing to know is exactly
11:51what the demon is called,
11:53to know the name and the formula
11:56that must be used to neutralize it.
11:59What happened to all those little demons,
12:02little devils that were in the popular belief
12:04of the first Christians?
12:06Does Satan incorporate them into his image,
12:09his figure, his abilities,
12:11or are they diluted and lost without more?
12:15No, I believe that in primitive Christianity,
12:18and later, until today,
12:20there will be another phenomenon of simplification,
12:22similar to the one we had spoken of before
12:24in Judaism in the 3rd or 2nd century BC,
12:27and that is that people need,
12:29the simpler, the better,
12:31and then, the one who pollutes,
12:33the sublunar demons,
12:35the one who are more or less good demons,
12:37the one who take care of the spirit,
12:39let's say, the tendency to evil in man,
12:41but without being especially evil,
12:43to be accused,
12:45well, that is too complicated for people,
12:47so to speak,
12:49and then it is centralized in one,
12:51and it is Satan and his court,
12:53and then, really, the only thing left
12:55is the incorporation of the ancient serpent,
12:59which is metamorphosed,
13:01which is another of the characteristics
13:03that the last Judaism incorporates.
13:06Before, we spoke of Solomon's testament,
13:08well, Job's testament
13:10also has beautiful scenes
13:12of how the demon is metamorphosed,
13:15for example, in the bread seller,
13:17in the king of the Persians,
13:19in the fishmonger,
13:21in what happens to him in order to deceive
13:23Job, etc.
13:25Well, all that is incorporated
13:27in a figure that later acquires
13:29some characteristics that are sometimes
13:31a little offensive
13:33to other races that are not,
13:35for example, the white race,
13:37because in the sayings of the fathers,
13:39the apothecary patrons,
13:41and in the apocryphal facts of the apostles
13:43of the 2nd and 3rd century,
13:45only one kind of demon appears,
13:47and it always, always appears,
13:49either as an Egyptian or as a black man
13:51or as an Arab or metamorphosing,
13:53always with a figure.
13:55And until today,
13:57in which there is only one kind of evil.
14:00Now, at the end of time,
14:02the demon will again bring out,
14:05according to Christian mythology,
14:07a lot of plurifacetic enemies,
14:11of many faces.
14:13Yes, yes, a lot,
14:15and then there will be a tremendous fight,
14:17then a good catalogue will be needed.
14:19Well, I don't know if it's worth
14:21getting old very late
14:23or living a long time
14:25to see this kind of fight.
14:27Now, what I...
14:29Yes, but sometimes
14:31Christians should also reflect
14:33a little on the inconsequence
14:35of assuming a God who is
14:37absolutely omnipotent,
14:39absolutely omnipotent,
14:41absolutely just,
14:43and absolutely kind,
14:45and at the same time
14:47there is also the presence
14:49of all this infernal court
14:51that all it does is annoy us
14:53with everything and everything.
14:55That is an aspect that I would like,
14:57since you are here,
14:59to make clear.
15:01Just as the rest,
15:03or most religions,
15:05have a dualistic concept
15:07and a figure of good
15:09and a figure of evil
15:11and a confrontation between both,
15:13as you just said,
15:15and yet a negative figure
15:17appears,
15:19becoming more and more
15:21prominent,
15:23and in many situations,
15:25in many passages,
15:27there is a kind of incongruity,
15:29as if there was a pulse
15:31between God, the creator of everything,
15:33including the devil,
15:35and his own creature.
15:37Of course, then the dilemma
15:39should be raised,
15:41either he lacks a little
15:43control,
15:45or he would not have
15:47total omnipotence,
15:49since these individuals
15:51fight for their respects
15:53in an autonomous way.
15:55It gives the impression
15:57that the current Church
15:59is trying to remove iron
16:01from Satan, hell,
16:03purgatory,
16:05those concepts that have been
16:07tremendous and ominous at the popular level.
16:09What the Pope says,
16:11is that hell is a state,
16:13in an abstract way,
16:15but it still exists.
16:17This is the important thing,
16:19and this is what we were saying before.
16:21As much as it is interpreted
16:23in a relatively symbolic or metaphorical way,
16:25that evil force still exists,
16:27or hell as a state
16:29where you will be deprived of God,
16:31as it has been said in the Catechism,
16:33and that inner suffering
16:35of being deprived of God,
16:37they say, will be more terrible
16:39than the destruction of flesh,
16:41etc., etc., etc.
16:43However,
16:45the difficulty,
16:47the fundamental problem
16:49that you and I pointed out
16:51a moment ago,
16:53whether it is a state or not,
16:55continues to exist.
16:57And how can they exist,
16:59on the one hand,
17:01with that just and kind God,
17:03that other force that opposes
17:05and fights against it,
17:07many individuals who, after all,
17:09have not opposed that Creator
17:11in such a radical way?
17:13That is my opinion.
17:15That is, that the Pope does not deny it,
17:17but that he simply accommodates it
17:19to the more modern spirit.
17:37Israel was not always Israel.
17:41Before the Hebrews,
17:43there were the Canaanites.
17:45Many beliefs were incorporated from them,
17:47such as those of the Indo-Aryans,
17:49of the Egyptians,
17:51and of the Greeks,
17:53from whom the term
17:55demon or daemonion comes precisely.
17:57In ancient times,
17:59the Jews believed in the existence
18:01of evil beings,
18:03of spirits with different forms
18:05and lived, above all, in the desert.
18:07It was not wise
18:09to move away from the camps
18:11or the villages
18:13when the shadows came.
18:17On the great day of purification,
18:19the Hebrews magically
18:21introduced their sins
18:23into a male goat
18:25and released him into the desert
18:27so that Azazel would feed himself
18:29and, in passing,
18:31be free of his guilt.
18:35In the end,
18:37beings of great powers,
18:39allies of the night
18:41and of the nocturnal animals,
18:43destined to torment,
18:45deceive and pervert man.
18:47They are not servants of God,
18:49but he allows his existence.
18:51Also in that category of demons
18:53were the spirits of the dead
18:55or the gods who worshiped
18:57the rest of the peoples,
18:59the Jews,
19:01the Egyptians,
19:03and the rest of the peoples,
19:05the Gentiles.
19:11In later texts,
19:13a Jewish demon appears as such,
19:15Asmodee,
19:17with whom Tobias faces
19:19and defeats him thanks to prayer
19:21and penance.
19:23And finally,
19:25in that evolution of an image of evil,
19:27specifically in the Book of Wisdom,
19:29Satan is identified
19:31with the Serpent of Paradise,
19:33considering him the opponent of God
19:35and the intruder of evil
19:37and death in the world,
19:39with which he thus
19:41unloads the key to that responsibility.
19:45The Jews distribute,
19:47so to speak,
19:49the human soul in five parts,
19:51and the lowest part is Nefesh.
19:53And Nefesh has the same numbers
19:55as Nahash,
19:57the Serpent of Paradise.
19:59And this is curious,
20:01because it makes us understand
20:03that this is an element
20:05that we all carry inside.
20:07That is, we have something
20:09of that Serpent of Paradise,
20:11since we have the same
20:13numerical components.
20:15In the manuscripts
20:17that were written
20:19and preserved here,
20:21in Kunran,
20:23the Essenes still considered
20:25the Satans as angels
20:27to punish or harm men,
20:29but not as fallen angels
20:31or guardians of hell,
20:33so present in the popular
20:35imagination of the Judeo-Christians.
20:39An attitude that has persisted
20:41and is extensible
20:43in most religions,
20:45or what is the same
20:47in the churches that represent it.
20:51The teachings and norms
20:53allegedly dictated by the gods
20:55for a specific historical moment
20:57and for a certain society
20:59require absolute fidelity
21:01to be maintained.
21:03However,
21:05beyond the social and political circumstances
21:07in which these religions arose,
21:09most of their norms,
21:11especially those that have to do
21:13with custom and way of life,
21:15are fading,
21:17obsolete,
21:19and with little frequency
21:21become grotesque.
21:23Any change from the outside,
21:25any technical advance,
21:27any new idea
21:29are looked at with distrust
21:31or violently rejected.
21:35And this is because
21:37social transformation,
21:39the development of science,
21:41and everything that contributes
21:43to expanding knowledge
21:45or liberalizing traditional habits
21:47corner the norms and dogmas
21:49in which religions are based.
21:53This ends up showing us
21:55as something anachronistic,
21:57based on rationally unsustainable principles.
21:59That in its time
22:01these advances were considered
22:03diabolical is understandable.
22:05No matter how divine
22:07their inspiration was,
22:09churches are human institutions
22:11and, as such,
22:13have faced, by all means,
22:15any influence
22:17that put their power at risk.
22:19A power basically
22:21in the blind obedience
22:23of the faithful,
22:25either out of conviction
22:27or out of fear of punishment.
22:31Whether they were real,
22:33mere legends,
22:35or alien deserters,
22:37the angels watching over the first heaven
22:39provided technique,
22:41knowledge, and new customs.
22:43Therefore, they went against
22:45what was established.
22:47Their influence was good for man,
22:49and good for religion.
22:51So it should not be surprising
22:53that in his book Enoch sends them
22:55to the underground abyss,
22:57to hell, where they will be
22:59until the day of judgment.
23:15Throughout all cultures
23:17we have always placed
23:19in this character
23:21all the negative parts,
23:23all the bad,
23:25all that we human beings
23:27do not accept of ourselves.
23:29Somehow we have put
23:31our negative things in him.
23:33We have made a projection
23:35of all the negative
23:37in this character,
23:39called Satan, demon.
23:41These Christian churches
23:43have made Satan
23:45appear in the book of Job.
23:47It says that the children of God
23:49appeared before Job,
23:51and Satan was among them.
23:53He was one of the children of God
23:55fulfilling his function.
23:57His function is to put us in a tight spot,
23:59and our cosmic function
24:01is to filter all this
24:03and reconvert it.
24:05We do not have more functions
24:07in the world than this.
24:09As we have seen,
24:11in its origins,
24:13Satan is a Christian of good.
24:15By definition,
24:17in the Judeo-Christian religion
24:19there is no duality,
24:21no confrontation,
24:23since everything comes from
24:25only one God and is subject to him.
24:27And since he is not an enemy of God,
24:29he is an enemy of man,
24:31the Church was strengthening
24:33and defining the figure of the evil
24:35until it made of him
24:37such a real character
24:39that he could not only touch him,
24:41but even fornicate with him.
24:50The shadow,
24:52our inner demon,
24:54does not have to be negative
24:56as long as we recognize it
24:58and know how to interpret it.
25:00If we look at it from the front,
25:02if we analyze it,
25:04if we live it,
25:06and if we overcome it,
25:08new fields and new expectations open up.
25:10In fact,
25:12in psychotherapy,
25:14when we treat a patient,
25:16they come with their own demons,
25:18repressed or realized,
25:20but with them.
25:24And it has a tremendously logical
25:26and coherent meaning
25:28throughout the history of the person,
25:30both in the past,
25:32in the present and in the future.
25:34We just have to understand it.
25:36And when we understand it,
25:38somehow,
25:40we are managing to integrate
25:42a healthier psyche.
25:44The shadow, therefore,
25:46does not have to be negative.
25:48Gabriel López de Rojas
25:50is the founder and great teacher
25:52of the Illuminati Order.
25:54What is the Illuminati Order, Gabriel?
25:56The Illuminati Order
25:58is a Masonic Order,
26:00occultist and Luciferian,
26:02which is dedicated to
26:04giving an initiation
26:06to those who
26:08approach their doors.
26:10Its main intention
26:12is to help those people
26:14who have an anxiety
26:16within occultism, Luciferianism, etc.
26:18You have defined the Order
26:20as, among other things,
26:22as Luciferian.
26:24What does that mean?
26:26Is Lucifer a kind of image
26:28that is worshipped within the Order?
26:30Or is it your intellectual
26:32or emotional focus of attention?
26:34What does Lucifer look like
26:36in an Order like this?
26:38Well, we observe
26:40the figure of Lucifer
26:44in different ways.
26:46For the people of the street,
26:48that is, for the non-initiates
26:50or profanes, Lucifer is the evil
26:52or the evil,
26:54since he has a Christian
26:56and prioritarily Catholic formation.
26:58For the
27:00beginners of the first grades,
27:02Lucifer is a kind
27:04of light angel
27:06who illuminates the inner darkness
27:08and leads the union with God.
27:10And for the high-ranking
27:12initiates,
27:14where we would already find
27:16the Luciferians,
27:18Lucifer is the God himself.
27:20The Christian God is dogma,
27:22limitation, amputation,
27:24castration, death.
27:26Lucifer is more
27:28united to freedom,
27:30and
27:32totally opposite approaches.
27:34But are there
27:36also those other
27:38satanic acts
27:40with a direct action,
27:42with a somewhat belligerent
27:44attitude against
27:46a country like this
27:48or another Catholic environment
27:50against the Church?
27:52Yes, of course.
27:54Within Satanism there are
27:56various currents.
27:58Satanism
28:00agglutinates various currents
28:02and Luciferism,
28:04Satanism,
28:06or the Abelian Court,
28:08or Luciferianism,
28:10are within
28:12those currents.
28:14There you find
28:16the kind of orders
28:18of churches or sects
28:20that you have just decided
28:22in these moments.
28:24Why Lucifer and not Satan?
28:26Is there a nuance
28:28in that difference,
28:30in that word?
28:32Yes, we
28:34choose
28:36Lucifer because
28:38we understand that he is
28:40the bearer of light.
28:42Very much linked to
28:44the Greek myth of Prometheus.
28:46However, Satan presents
28:48other different connotations.
28:50But within the Catholic Church
28:52both figures
28:54end up
28:56being the same.
28:58You go further back
29:00and separate one thing from another.
29:02Well,
29:04we believe that
29:06the angel of light I mentioned before
29:08appears in history
29:10with different expressions.
29:12History appears
29:14as the sethegician,
29:16the Hebrew Satan,
29:18the male goat of the medieval witches,
29:20the baphomet of the Templars,
29:22the actual god
29:24of the Yezidis,
29:26etc.
29:28And within that,
29:30we also believe
29:32that these expressions
29:34are somewhat different.
29:36Starting from there,
29:38we prioritize the expression of Lucifer
29:40because we consider it
29:42the most initiatory
29:44and necessary
29:46for our philosophical purposes.
29:48That is to say,
29:50you would be closer
29:52to occultism,
29:54to an esoteric
29:56occultist philosophy,
29:58than closer to
30:00a Church
30:02in contrast
30:04to the established Church.
30:06Exactly. That is why
30:08when we started the conversation
30:10I defined the order as Masonic,
30:12Occultist and Luciferian.
30:14You use the term
30:16Masonry on many occasions.
30:18There are rituals,
30:20as there are in Masonry,
30:22that have a symbolic
30:24clothing,
30:26which is spectacular
30:28or even dramatic.
30:30If the beginner has to die
30:32in order to be born
30:34to a new way of life,
30:36all that,
30:38for a spectator not to know,
30:40would have very dramatic effects.
30:42Is there such a ritual
30:44or ceremony in you?
30:46We use
30:48Masonic banditry,
30:50white gloves
30:52and all kinds
30:54of albanileria symbols
30:56present in Masonry,
30:58such as
31:00the compass of a square,
31:02the mosaic
31:04of chess,
31:06the triangle
31:08of the eye,
31:10the delta, etc.
31:12Within that order
31:14there is a commitment,
31:16as there is in any group.
31:18That commitment
31:20gives freedom
31:22to the individual.
31:24If you want to leave,
31:26you can leave freely
31:28or that brings consequences.
31:30No, the entry and exit
31:32of the order
31:34belongs to the consciousness
31:36of each one.
31:38If you think you have to leave,
31:40you can leave.
31:42The only thing you are asked for
31:44is a bit of respect
31:46for the teachings
31:48and a minimum of care
31:50for all those roles
31:52that are related to the order,
31:54as we are in a country
31:56that is somewhat problematic
31:58in these matters.
32:00It gives the impression
32:02that what you are proposing
32:04is the figure
32:06or what you propose
32:08within your group,
32:10which is Lucifer,
32:12not as a negative figure,
32:14not as the antiromorph,
32:16the specular image
32:18of the Catholic God,
32:22but as an image
32:24of good,
32:26or that tends towards good.
32:30At the beginning of the interview
32:32I explained that the figure
32:34of Lucifer,
32:36as it ascends in rank,
32:38tends to be the God himself.
32:42And we are in that.
32:44We consider the God of Christians
32:46to be much more evil
32:48than Lucifer.
32:50And also,
32:52so that people can verify it,
32:54they only have to go over
32:56the great atrocities
32:58that have been committed
33:00under the symbol of the cross.
33:02They have to go over
33:04such flagrant and well-known cases
33:06such as the witches,
33:08the Jews of the Middle Ages, etc.
33:10They place us in the bad,
33:12when they really have their hands
33:14much more stained with blood
33:16than our Order
33:18or similar places.
33:20The Illuminati Order
33:22that came from Bavaria,
33:24from what I have read
33:26in your works,
33:28in the 18th century
33:30has a secret character
33:32because it is prohibited
33:34to publicly express
33:36your activity
33:38in a society like this
33:40where the Church has
33:42a huge social presence
33:44and you feel persecuted, harassed
33:46or proscribed in some way.
33:48Yes.
33:50How?
33:52Well,
33:54certain things have happened
33:56that prove that
33:58there are sectors
34:00that do not see us well,
34:02but they see us as similar to the Order.
34:04Do you think that the information
34:06that is given at the journalistic level
34:08or at the level of other media
34:10is true or is it a trend?
34:12It is totally a trend.
34:14In many cases,
34:16it is totally a trend.
34:18And that does us a terrible damage
34:20because people
34:22can be moved
34:24to one side or the other
34:26very easily with the strength
34:28that the media have.
34:30I think that is a great danger
34:32and I consider that the journalists
34:34who play with this
34:36are truly irresponsible.
34:52During the Middle Ages
34:54many dark pages were written
34:56for history
34:58and the Church
35:00has to assume one of the darkest
35:02thanks to the Inquisition.
35:04An institution born
35:06to repress the heresy
35:08mainly that of Cathars and Albigensians
35:10who with their economic and political power
35:12in the south of France
35:14constituted a threat
35:16to the factual powers
35:18but that over time
35:20was including among its prisoners
35:22other groups,
35:24perhaps less politically significant
35:26because the State
35:28and the Church
35:30kept the goods of the condemned.
35:32Thus, towards the 14th century
35:34began the persecution
35:36against all forms of witchcraft
35:38and witchcraft
35:40because is there a greater heresy
35:42than the one of being in dealings
35:44with the devil?
35:46And what devil?
35:48The fanaticism of the frail inquisitors
35:50and the popular fantasy
35:52designed a model of Satan
35:54as absurd.
36:00He is sitting in a chair
36:02that sometimes looks like gold
36:04and sometimes like black wood
36:06with a great throne, majesty
36:08and gravity
36:10and with a very sad, ugly
36:12and angry face
36:14that by then is represented
36:16in the figure of a black man
36:18with a crown of small horns
36:20and three of them are very big
36:22and they look like a bastard
36:24the two have in the collar
36:26and the other in the forehead
36:28with the one that gives light
36:30and illuminates all
36:32who are in the aquelarre
36:34and the clarity is greater
36:36than that of the moon
36:38and much less than that of the sun
36:40and that is enough
36:42for all things to be seen
36:44and known
36:46and the eyes have round,
36:48large, very open,
36:50the body and size
36:52between man and bastard
36:54the hands and feet with fingers
36:56as of a person
36:58but they are all the same
37:00pointed towards the tips
37:02with rampant nails
37:04and the hands curved
37:06like a bird of prey
37:08and the feet as if they were of a goose
37:10and he has a terrible voice
37:12out of tune
37:14and when he speaks
37:16he sounds like a mule
37:18The Devil's Inquisition
37:24This description of the devil
37:26who presided over the aquelarres
37:28is one more, and not the worst,
37:30that the inquisitors of the improperly
37:32called saint or trade
37:34collected in their interrogations.
37:36It comes from the Acts of the Self-Defeat
37:38celebrated in Logroño
37:40in 1610.
37:44In November of that year
37:46the streets of the city
37:48were filled with people
37:50coming from all the neighborhood
37:52and the neighboring provinces.
37:54They were there to attend
37:56a show as solemn and dramatic
37:58as can be imagined.
38:00There were 53 condemned
38:02for various crimes
38:04blasphemy, heretical propositions,
38:06Judaism, apostasy,
38:08Lutheranism
38:10and witchcraft.
38:12All of them were part
38:14of an impressive procession
38:16in which, along with commissars
38:18and notaries of the Holy Office
38:20dressed in their best garb
38:22were religious people
38:24from the Orders of Santo Domingo,
38:26San Francisco, La Merced,
38:28the Holy Trinity
38:30and the Company of Jesus
38:32as well as many others
38:34from different monasteries
38:36in the region.
38:38For the 53 condemned
38:40there were penalties
38:42but the ones that
38:44aroused the most interest
38:46among the people
38:48were six of them
38:50who, for their witchcraft
38:52and other horrendous crimes
38:54in connivance with the devil
38:56were to be burned alive
38:58in the stake.
39:13Those poor wretched people
39:15who burned in a square in Logroño
39:17mostly came from Zugarramurdi,
39:19a picturesque town
39:21in Navarra
39:23near the border with France.
39:25Today's houses
39:27are built on the foundations
39:29of those of that time.
39:31Many basements
39:33and walls are still the same.
39:36From any of those houses
39:38Maria de Llurreteguía
39:40or Garaciana de Barremechea
39:42used to meet
39:44sheltered in the shadow
39:46of some alley
39:48with the other witches
39:50Miguel de Goiburu
39:52and Joanes de Echalar.
39:54Already together
39:56they would get lost
39:58in some of the dark forests
40:00that surround the village.
40:02Forests full of legends
40:04in which the night
40:06is conducive to meeting
40:08with the devil.
40:12But the place
40:14for which the Arre,
40:16those fantastic meetings
40:18presided by the Prince of Darkness,
40:20was this huge natural cave.
40:22Today, it is a scene
40:24of rural meetings
40:26in which one eats, drinks and dances,
40:28but with a talent
40:30very different from that of that time.
40:32If we have to give credit
40:34to what is stated in the Inquisition
40:36of those accused,
40:38in the cave and in the meadow
40:40next to it,
40:42the meadow of Berrosco Berro
40:44or Meadow of the Bastard,
40:46the devil,
40:48in the form of a male goat,
40:50received the attention
40:52of witches and wizards.
40:54He marked his signal
40:56to the novices,
40:58judged the merits
41:00of some and others,
41:02showing more pleasure
41:04than the others,
41:06and ended
41:08in the sexual orgy
41:10culminated by the Arre,
41:12in which they indiscriminately
41:14fornicated with each other
41:16and with the others,
41:18and the devil with all.
41:30The so-called witch's ointment
41:32that was used for those occasions
41:34had a high content of black
41:36velladone and vellum,
41:38which caused a hallucinatory
41:40smell in which anything
41:42imagined was lived as real,
41:44including the presence
41:46of a devil as grotesque
41:48and repulsive as libidinous.
41:50This may explain
41:52that some witches
41:54honestly believed in the reality
41:56of such absurd conciliables,
41:58but in the vast majority of cases
42:00the Arre and the figure of the devil
42:02were the result of torture.
42:14The inquisitor friars
42:16did not seek the truth,
42:18they already knew it,
42:20and until the confession was not adjusted
42:22to what was foreseen,
42:24they did not cease in the storm.
42:26Even so, when to escape
42:28the unimaginable pain
42:30the accused confessed
42:32what the inquisitor wanted to hear,
42:34the torture continued
42:36until they revealed
42:38to other witches and wizards
42:40generally their closest relatives
42:42and how many names
42:44came to his mind at that moment.
42:46There is no time,
42:48and I do not wish
42:50to describe the degree of sadism
42:52to which the members
42:54of the Holy Office in Europe
42:56that the spectator can imagine
42:58carried out.
43:04Within Christianity
43:06everything that was not Christian
43:08according to the authors
43:10and at what times
43:12was demonized,
43:14that is, in the Middle Ages
43:16Jews, heretics, pagans
43:18were demonized,
43:20everything that was not Christian,
43:22therefore we projected our own shadow
43:24to those who were not with us,
43:26and that was very bad,
43:28since we had to kill them all,
43:30that is what happened
43:32and so it goes.
43:34In a way, the self,
43:36the personality,
43:38does not manage to control
43:40these two aspects,
43:42and when that happens
43:44we are faced with a psychological problem,
43:46and when we are faced with a psychological problem
43:48we are faced with a psychological disease.
43:50We do not have to go through history
43:52to know how we used to define
43:54mentally ill people,
43:56demonized.
43:58It has almost been from this century
44:00that we do not call them demonized,
44:02that there is a typology
44:04of mental illnesses,
44:06but before they were demonized.
44:12That is an aspect of the subject
44:14that deserves to be considered.
44:16Beyond the technical progress,
44:18the social advances,
44:20the scientific advances,
44:22man has not evolved
44:24when it comes to evil,
44:26intolerance, or sadism
44:28towards other men.
44:30It is a sordid aspect
44:32of human nature
44:34that remains in the same terms
44:36as thousands of years ago.
44:38Now, in this historical stage,
44:40we continue to torture,
44:42mutilate and kill
44:44with the same shocking cruelty
44:46as in the Middle Ages,
44:48and we defend ourselves
44:50for the same reasons.
44:52Religion, homeland, tradition.
44:54Principles that in the hands
44:56of some are respectable
44:58and in the hands of others
45:00are pure rubbish.
45:02In the end, it constitutes
45:04only a pretext for the vile
45:06to give free rein to their vileness.
45:08The question is
45:10if this principle of evil
45:12is part of human psychology
45:14or is private to a few,
45:16or if it is the one
45:18in which we project our evilness.
45:20We carry it all inside
45:22and some control it
45:24while others let it loose.
45:28The Nazis
45:30made the excuse
45:32that they had to end the Jews
45:34because
45:36they were dominating the world,
45:38because they had
45:40economic power.
45:42The shadow of them,
45:44what they didn't recognize
45:46was that they were
45:48the ones who really wanted
45:50to control the world.
45:52And they almost got it.
45:54They invaded all of Europe
45:56and started the Second World War.
46:00With that excuse,
46:02the problem of their shadow
46:04made them not recognize
46:06this negative part of them
46:08and put it in the Jewish people.
46:11But this is a program
46:13dedicated to the figure of the devil
46:15and the only thing it does
46:17is to make it clear
46:19that the figure of that Satan,
46:21as impossible as it is perpendicular,
46:23was a creation of the Protestant
46:25and Catholic churches of the time.
46:29By synthesizing in it
46:31everything social and morally negative,
46:33they designed a model
46:35only suitable for the very naive
46:37or the very uneducated,
46:39the one who can resist
46:41the slightest critical analysis.
46:43It is not him who sins
46:45or breaks the rules.
46:47It is man who does it.
46:49Fulfilling the task entrusted to him,
46:51Satan tests the humans,
46:53just as he did
46:55with Jesus here,
46:57in the Mount of Temptations,
46:59just as he did
47:01with so many anachorites
47:03or mystics ascended
47:05to the altars
47:08Such a function of a tempter
47:10is not only convenient,
47:12but essential
47:14for the believer to check
47:16his degree of spiritual evolution,
47:18his ability to control
47:20the passions.
47:22What happens is that,
47:24by effectively fulfilling his task,
47:26he leaves us in evidence.
47:28And we do not forgive him for that.
47:31With an immature and irresponsible attitude,
47:34we blame him
47:36when in reality
47:38he is only ours.
47:44I really do not know
47:46if Satan exists or does not exist.
47:48I have no idea.
47:50Thank God, no one has presented him to me
47:52and I hope no one presents him to me.
47:54But really,
47:56what I do believe
47:58is in my inner demons,
48:00what I believe
48:02is in the demons
48:04that I have seen in my patients,
48:06in my friends,
48:08in my family,
48:10and in that process
48:12that we all have to go through
48:14to confront our demons.
48:16Because only by confronting
48:18our own demons
48:20can we grow.
48:26For today our time is up.
48:28Let us leave Satan
48:30and I will see you next week
48:32when we will meet again in the other reality
48:34with a topic that I hope
48:36is also of your interest.
48:38Until then.